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Improving Mindat.orgPhoto Atlas of Mineral Pseudomorphism
14th Sep 2017 11:54 UTCJean-Louis O.
I just received my copy of Photo Atlas of Mineral Pseudomorphism by J. Theo Kloprogge and R. Lavinsky....
I'm sorry to say it that way but it's the worst mineral book I've ever seen, i'm sending it back.
For something named "Photo Atlas", one would expect to see a lot of wonderfull pictures.
Well, guess again !
No glossy paper, just regular paper, like the one you put into your printer.
No full page pictures.
No high-def pictures. Just a regular color laser printing (in fact there's even some black and white pictures!)
Most of the pictures are blurry !!!! Can you believe it ?!?! I can take better pictures with my smartphone, or even with a smartphone from the year 2000.
In some of them you can't even see the mineral ..... you have to imagine it.
The contrast is bad, the colors are off....
No wonder the amazon preview only shows the ''text'' pages... I really feel ripped off.
For the price asked, that book is totally NOTworth it.
How can the authors agree to such a poor quality print at such a high price ????
It's a shame, I was looking forward to this book since last year....
Edit: the back cover says "Contains 500 high-resolution full color photos". That's a shameless lie...
14th Sep 2017 13:41 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
https://www.elsevier.com/books/photo-atlas-of-mineral-pseudomorphism/kloprogge/978-0-12-803674-7
14th Sep 2017 14:41 UTCJean-Louis O.
14th Sep 2017 15:42 UTCOwen Lewis
My order (through Amazon UK) has just been sent off. At £67.78 and with free delivery for a new hard-back copy, I shan't be expecting the highest quality of book-making or art-work - just the quality of the knowledge it promises to hold.
14th Sep 2017 15:46 UTCLuís Martins 🌟
14th Sep 2017 16:45 UTCJeff Weissman Expert
Would like to see opinions from others who may have the actual book on hand.
14th Sep 2017 16:55 UTCOwen Lewis
14th Sep 2017 17:43 UTCJean-Louis O.
Also, I don't see why I should reveal my real name. I never do so on the internet and I won't do it for you.
I'm just sharing my disapointment here and warning people on amazon.
If you think I'm a lier or just someone trying to ''bash'' this book, try to get your hands on a copy and tell me what you think of it.
Personnaly, when I pay ~90€ for a book I expect quality and all the more when the book is entitled ''Photo Atlas'' !
And, no I didn't bought a photocopy of the book (well, I sure hope so...), I bought it on amazon, from amazon.
So unless amazon has begun to sell fake books, I think I have the actual one.
The images may show great on your computer as they are probably from the ebook version.
As I said, the problem comes from the paper used and the low quality printing.
I will also like to add that I would really like people to tell me their copy of the book has great images... because that would mean mine is defective and I could get it replaced by a good one.....
14th Sep 2017 18:01 UTCKevin Conroy Manager
14th Sep 2017 18:36 UTCJeff Weissman Expert
14th Sep 2017 18:52 UTCJean-Louis O.
I don't find the pictures that great.... far from it.
But, anyway, they are still a LOT better than the ones I see on my copy of the book :(
As I said, the paper is really cheap, the pictures are blurry (most of them, and it's not a printing defect affecting only some pictures, all of them have the same ''grain'') and the colors are really off.
The book really looks like someone printed it with somekind of not-so-good laser printer in his office and then had it binded with a premium cover (I have to admit the cover is great!).
Isn't there someone who actually has the book ?
14th Sep 2017 18:53 UTCKevin Conroy Manager
14th Sep 2017 21:40 UTCAlysson Rowan Expert
This looks to be a well presented textbook, richly illustrated with a mixture of colour and monochrome photographs, photomicrographs and sketches.
While I might agree that the title may hint at a coffee-table book, any cursory glance at the inside will tell you that this is a textbook.
I could sympathise with a complaint about the quality of the printing (I haven't seen a physical copy) but not with any complaint about the content, since a preview is offered.
Just my ha'penneth worth.
14th Sep 2017 21:42 UTCWayne Corwin
Maybe you got a cheep 'knock off'' somehow?
14th Sep 2017 22:32 UTCJean-Louis O.
I haven't complained about the content, just the quality of the printing. :(
Wayne, I really wish that's the case.... As I said, I bought it from amazon (sold by amazon), so I don't think I got a knock off, but who knows ???
That's why I would like to know if anyone else have the book.
I've send mine back but if I found out I the one I got was a knock off, I would definitely buy another ''real'' one.
As I said, my complaint is only about the quality of printing/paper.
Frankly, when I saw how the book was, I didn't even bother to look at the content (even though that's why I bought it...), I just shuffled through and decided to get my money back.
From my point of view, it is just unacceptable to market something of such poor quality.
I have many many books about minerals and a other things, and that's the worst book I've ever seen. In terms of quality, the only thing it can be compared to is an amateur print made using cheap office paper and a cheap laser printer (that's something I know as book binding is one of my hobbies. I've done it many times, often, if not every time, with a better paper and print quality).
Anyway, if I got a phony book, the authors (if they read this thread) will be able to do something to stop it.
If I got the "real" book..... well..... the only thing I can say is : please don't do that and/or find a better publisher.
14th Sep 2017 23:33 UTCOwen Lewis
This gets a little bit like 'Never mind the quality (of the content). Just feel the width (of the binding) :-) Science books are always relatively expensive because they sell only in short runs. The production standards tend the mediocre (in many but not all cases) because most students would rather pay less that the costs that a good quality short run book necessitates.
This book sell in hardback and including the e-book version for USD100. That is not expensive for a hardback science text book.
And, re-reading your original post, you did not just attack the production quality but were scathing about its content, that you now say you only glanced at!
As said, more to follow when my copy has arrived and I have read it.
14th Sep 2017 23:56 UTCJean-Louis O.
And, if my original post sound like I'm scathing the content, let me say this loud and clear : I have no opinion about the content (quality of the texts inside), I haven't read it and even if I had, I wouldn't be able to tell good from bad. I also assume the text is good as it come from serious people.
I don't find USD100 to be cheap for a short run text book, but i'm not in the US so ...
To compare, look at what Bode (german publisher) is able to do (Namibia I & II for example), limited edition (1000), hardbound, high quality (texts and photos) and a lot more pages (600+) for 75€. It's not exactly the same thing as it's not a textbook but I don't think such prints are cheaper than textbooks.
But that's not really the point.
The book is described by the publisher as :
There are many examples of pseudomorphs, but they have never been brought together in a single reference book that features high-resolution, full-color pseudomorph formations together with the original minerals that they have replaced.
That's a lie. And that's my point, nothing more, nothing less.
If the book was marketed as a textbook I would have no problem with it and probably wouldn't have bought it.
I'm not a mineralogist nor a geologist, I'm curious about pseudomorphs but not necessarily interested in all the technical details. I was only hoping to learn a little more about it and to enjoy some "high-resolution, full-color" pictures.
You (not specially Owen) claim this is a textbook and I should not be complaining. I have to disagree.
The very ''showy'' cover, the publisher description, the name (Photo Atlas) and the participation of R. Lavinsky who is -as someone pointed out- known for his photos, the price, everything indicated a good ''picture book".
You may not agree with me but I think that's false advertising.
I'm looking forward to hearing what you think about the book.
PS: sorry for the multiple edits, but I tend to make a lot of mistakes when I write in english.
15th Sep 2017 00:16 UTCJorge Santos Garcia
There is a person who actually bought one book and wrote a post saying he do not like it because of the pictures' quality.
A bunch of other persons that do not have or even saw the book are trying to convince him that the book is great and the pictures are of very good quality.
There is something strange in all of this.
Jorge Santos Garcia
15th Sep 2017 00:58 UTCJean-Louis O.
I feel less alone in here...
15th Sep 2017 04:12 UTCMalcolm Southwood 🌟 Expert
The first half of the book – the text section (115 pages) – is extremely useful if you want to learn about the physics and chemistry of how pseudomorphs happen. However, the casual collector will probably find this section heavy-going and, I have to say, parts of it would have benefitted from a more thorough proof-reading. The references section is extensive and has already pointed me to a number of important papers that I was previously unaware of.
The second half of the book – the photographs (roughly 160 pages) – is a little disappointing to me. Based on what I’ve read so far, there is little (if any ?) cross referencing between the text section and the photograph section. (True, there are illustrative figures within the text section itself, but may of these are SEM images or photomicrographs of thin sections or polished sections.) The photo section per se is, therefore, essentially stand-alone, and the photographs are presented with minimalistic captions and no discussion whatsoever of the geological environment in which they occur; this is disappointing to me.
Yet more concerning (again, this is a personal opinion) is that the photographs have been poorly selected. The style is that each page represents a particular type of pseudomorph – typically headed “A pseudomorph after B” – and then three or more photos are shown; typically one of the pseudomorph, one of Mineral A and one of Mineral B. It would seem to me that the value of each of these pages would be best served by ensuring that the photograph of Mineral B shows a similar habit (and, where possible, a specimen from the same locality) as the pseudomorph itself. Unfortunately this is not the case. Taking the “Bayldonite pseudomorph after mimetite” example (on page 199), a photograph of “bayldonite” (although I suspect it is arsentsumebite) after slender hexagonal prisms of mimetite from Tsumeb is shown. It would have been relatively easy, one would think, to find mimetite crystals of a similar habit from Tsumeb for the “Mineral B” photograph but, instead, a specimen of thick tabular mimetite crystals from Cobar in Australia is shown which bears minimal similarity to the illustrated pseudomorph.
Over the years Rob Lavinsky has accumulated a formidable photographic database and, as we have seen here on Mindat, he’s been more than generous with its use and availability. Here, too, I would congratulate Rob on making the database available for a project such as this. However, the overall quality of this book would have benefitted if the photographs had been multi-sourced and selected more appropriately for the task of illustrating and explaining pseudomorphism.
So, knowing what I know now, would I buy the book? Yes, I would, but much more for the textbook aspect than for the “photo atlas” concept.
15th Sep 2017 09:18 UTCMarco Piero Sacchi
I read your comments and critics about this book. Anyhow if you want to get a 400 hundred pages book with real high resolution pics of Alpine minerals (over 600 hundred, shot by the well known photographer Roberto Appiani) I will be glad to send you a complimentary copy of "GIOIELLI DELLE ALPI ITALIANE" (JEWELS OF ITALIAN ALPS), a new book that will be published in early October at a price of 49 Euros. At least for the time being, it's in Italian only (but we are planning an edition in English in 2018).
15th Sep 2017 13:28 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis
15th Sep 2017 14:15 UTCKeith A. Peregrine
15th Sep 2017 18:51 UTCJean-Louis O.
Thank you, your book looks great, that's definitely the kind I like.
But I think I'll wait until the english version comes out to get one.
My italian isn't very good and it would be a shame not being able to read it.
Anyway, thank you again.
21st Sep 2017 17:47 UTCJean-Louis O.
21st Sep 2017 23:33 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
The first half is a very detailed and scientific analysis of different types of pseudomorping processes. I haven't read it all, but I of course checked out whether the use of 'epimorph' matched how it is used in general in the mineral world - and it doesn't (they use the term 'perimorph' for what is mostly described as an epimorph, ie a hollow shell over a mineral that has subsequently been dissolved).
Unfortunately this section is very hard to read as it seems the author likes to use single paragraphs that take up almost the whole page, and even when multiple paragraphs are used there is no spacing between them.
The second half is simply galleries of pseudomorph photos taken from Arkenstone's photo library. These don't always coincide with the descriptions written in the first half, and generally only cover pseudomorphs that are relatively well known with fewer of the unusual types.
There are some dubious pseudomorphs as well, for example a "Turquoise pseudomorph after marmot jaw" which is almost certainly "odontolite" rather than turquoise, and "opal pseudomorph after ammonite" for 'ammolite' (which actually is an aragonite layer, not opal). "Martite" is listed as 'sphalerite after magnetite' rather than 'hematite after magnetite' which is what it really is.
I was hoping for some of the more unusual pseudomorphs to be detailed in this fossil replacement section, such as the australian cassiterite after gastropods, or the colombian emerald snails. But no, they aren't.
More disappointing is that the 500 photos include in the most part only one in three of the actual pseudomorph, with another two photos showing two random photos of the original mineral (not necessarily from the same locality) and the replacement mineral.
But most worryingly, there is absolutely no description within this photo section to describe the pseudomorphs being shown, it's not even obvious at first that the other two photos are not pseudomorphs but simply to compare. Not even to describe what type of pseudomorphism is being shown.
There is certainly a need for a good photo atlas of pseudomorphs. But this isn't it.
22nd Sep 2017 20:07 UTCRonald J. Pellar Expert
I agree with Jolyon's criticism about the lack of description with the photos, as well.
That being said, I will say that it tries to fill the need for some psuedomorph information that is reasonable current.
22nd Sep 2017 20:40 UTCErik Vercammen Expert
25th Sep 2017 00:41 UTCJean-Louis O.
the paper is a good coated paper and the color work is appropriate for commercial use
Ronald,
I don't really understand. Are you saying you find the paper/printing good or are saying it is good for commercial use as a textbook ?
Anyway, what do you think about the color work on the azurite from Chessy ? Sorry I do not have the book anymore so I can't point you to a specific page.
From what Iremember, the color blue was really bad on that particular picture.
Thank you and Joylon for those reviews.
25th Sep 2017 19:40 UTCRonald J. Pellar Expert
I actually meant both of those statements. I have more than 20 years in the electronic color printing industry. The paper is a good coated paper that is very white. I can produce very good color reproduction. But since it is a matte finish it will not have the saturation of color that is possible on a good glossy paper that is used in the coffee table books everyone likes. However, it does a better job than the paper used in many books.
That said, it is my impression that the autor(s) did all the "prepress"work of formatting the text, writing the captions. choosing the images , and laying the book out, i.e., book and typographic design, and then converted it to a PDF and sent it to a textbook to be printed. Without the proper ICC press and ink profiles the color reproduction will not be the best. This short circuiting the proper process for printing a quality book can and usually does cause problems. Considering all of this I think the book came our better than was to be expected and at the very least equivalent to standard commercial quality. However, I do feel the price is too high for this book, as many books are available with very good prepress work, glossy paper, etc for much less maoney, e.t., the LIthographie LLC publications.
My biggest beef is the use of single column text with insufficient leading, i.e., line spacing for font size and column width. The book would be much more readable with a larger font size, at least two column layout, and extra leading. The actual text layout is what I would consider amateurish. That is why I feel that the author(s) did their own prepress for whatever reason that I don't understand.
25th Sep 2017 19:52 UTCJean-Louis O.
Regards,
JL
25th Sep 2017 21:09 UTCRonald J. Pellar Expert
Unfortunately some of our mineral magazines are guilty of this!
26th Sep 2017 15:17 UTCDana Morong
You are absolutely correct about that: I have had trouble reading articles that had fancy background colors or designs. I thought the purpose of an article is to inform the reader, not to confuse him! In one case, in an extremely interesting article in Rocks and Minerals magazine, I had to write to the author, and editor, to try to get a copy that I could actually read! And one extremely interesting book was printed in font that could have been better, and they did not use double spaces between sentences (a cheap way to save on space). Another book, a Geographical Dictionary, that I got second hand, was extremely interesting, and lately I found a later edition of it, and was going to keep that instead, when I noticed that the newer printing was much less clear, as if someone had diluted the ink. As the older copy (with the darker ink) is easier to read, I have kept that, and will give away the newer copy instead, despite the few updates in information that the newer one has.
I sometimes wonder if some of these layout articles are like some architects that like to design a building that looks good in a drawing but doesn't always actually work well in real life (such as neglecting to realize that snow piles up on roofs in certain areas in winter, or which way the sun can shine in windows - do they even know which way the sunshine comes during the day?).
26th Sep 2017 15:37 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
A caveat: in some languages (e.g., German) there are never double spaces between sentences.
In fact that seems to be the English standard since the 1950s - see also the interesting background info in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sentence_spacing
27th Sep 2017 02:20 UTCDoug Daniels
27th Sep 2017 08:18 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
27th Sep 2017 21:54 UTCOwen Lewis
-------------------------------------------------------
> I haven't seen a printed copy. My criticisms are
> based purely on the PDF.
Well, my hardback copy of the book arrived today. This post is based on a quick skim through. To someone generally familiar with physics and chemistry to undergrad level, the text is approachable and, bought for the purpose of learning about mineral pseudomorphs (from a very slender start point), I expect to considerably improve my understanding.
The book is decently bound and its 250-odd pages are printed on reasonable paper - if not the best quality. The book is arranged in two approximately equal halves. The first is text with a smattering of B/W illustrations (SEM etc) with a few in colour. These 100 pages are described with a single heading as 'Introduction' (!) The second half is divided into small chapters, each for a chemical group e.g. Elements, Sulphides and Sulphosalts, Halides etc., Most pages have either 3 or 4 images on them; the pics show an example or two of a pseudo morph against a picture of a normal form for the morphing mineral and also one of the mineral being replaced.. This seems very helpful for a newbie but I can quite see why it might annoy an expert mineralogist.
Overall, the quality of book production is satisfactory (and typical of the Elsevier house stype and format for its science books. However, Elsevier badly lets down the authors, its customers and, ultimately, itself in the following ways:
The 100-odd page introduction badly requires the services of a firm and expert editor - which all publishing houses employ. As it is presented, the text is quite unnecessarily difficult to follow, mainly a result of the type layout. Paragraphing is only indicated by first word indentation without spacing between paragraphs. Similarly, sentences are not double spaced. The result is huge slabs of text (interesting no doubt).that make unnecessarily tiring the reading of them. Greater use should be made also of section headings and sub-headings. As a minor niggle the pagination should be at the bottom of pages and not at the top. I really don't care what the conventions may be in PagoPago; these guys are writing in english for an english-speaking readership and the layout should follow the expected english conventions that promote readability for english-speaking readers. That is a part of what the editor is paid for.
I find the images to be informative but the quality of reproduction is poor - barely acceptable. Editorial control over the neutrality of backgrounds is noticeable due to its abscence. The image contrast is poor and there are frequent examples of burn-out. I'm pretty sure that is down to the printing and not the original photos.
Overall? Say 7/10. Recommend? Yes, with the above caveats. Happy enough to keep my copy. I wasn't expecting an art book. Probably not the definitive work on the subject; someone is going to be tempted to do it better - and not use Elsevier as their publisher.
4th Oct 2017 19:02 UTCRonald J. Pellar Expert
The use of two spaces between sentences and double spacing of lines was and still is a requirement for typewritten manuscripts. The extra space is used by the editor and/or proofreader to markup the document for typesetting. In typesetting ext, a single space is generally used between sentences and occasionally no space is used to achieve good justification when the initial capital letter of the next sentence has sufficient white space, e.g., '...s.T..'. The spacing between lines of text is determined by placing an appropriate amount of interline space, i.e., leading. The amount of leading is determined by the font's x-height, the column width, etc. and is usually determined by a professional typesetter. In fact, the whole process of page layout and typesetting is part and parcel of the prepress process. Unfortunately, much of the prepress is being done by the author(s) themselves these days.
Owen,
The use of high quality matte coated paper will not achieve the same maximum density for a color ink as a high quality glossy paper will. Hence the loss of contrast.
Dana,
What appears to be true today in magazine publishing is that the page design and layout is bsed on advertising principles, i.e., to attract attention, rather than good book design principles based on readability. Some of this is due to removing the prepress operations from the professional printer’s responsibility.
17th Oct 2017 23:41 UTCPeter Lyckberg Expert
Text section certainly seem to be all worth opens time and money!
Will certainly order it with the expectation of poor printing/paper.
Cheers
Peter
23rd Oct 2017 04:22 UTCHoward Heitner
. I think that the selection of samples was good. The quality of photographs in a book or magazine is often more a function of the paper quality and printing process than the skill of the photographer. Some colors , especially green, are really hard to reproduce. This topic has been discussed elsewhere on Mindat. I do disagree with a few of the labels. On p. 120, the Georgetown pseudomorphs after azurite are a mixture of copper and calcite. On page 190, the Camp Verde pseudomorphs after glauberite are calcite, not gypsum.
My major criticism of this book concerns the section by J. Theo Kloprogge. It covers only pseudomorphs formed by chemical reaction, where the original mineral is related chemically to the pseudomorph. The chemistry is interesting to someone with a background in inorganic chemistry, but probably not to most collectors. I would call it "chemical petrology" . The pseudomorphs shown are all in rock thin sections, not hand specimens. Nothing is mentioned about pseudomorphs where there is no obvious chemical reaction, for example quartz after aragonite. In short, it says practically nothing about how the specimens shown in the photo section were formed.
26th Sep 2018 16:44 UTCP. R. Lemkin
26th Sep 2018 18:56 UTCHiro Inukai
28th Sep 2018 15:23 UTCJean-Louis O.
As I already said too many times, this may be a good textbook but it shouldn't be advertised as a "photoatlas" with his-res pictures.
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