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Identity HelpIDENTIFY MINERAL

3rd Dec 2013 15:44 UTCMr Farooq

This mineral is from badkhshan Afghanistan come from the mine of tourmaline color is blue & hexagonal.few are complete crystal & few are like flower combine on tourmaline.few afghans peoples said they are apitite.

3rd Dec 2013 16:02 UTCRui Nunes 🌟 Expert

My vote goes to fluorapatite.

3rd Dec 2013 19:06 UTCDan Costian

I agree with fluorapatite because of shape and color..

3rd Dec 2013 20:32 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Fluorapatite most likely. Check the hardness. Does it fluoresce?

3rd Dec 2013 21:01 UTCUwe Ludwig

May be Fluorapatite however, I had blue Sapphires of the Ural in my hands which looked quite similar.

Rgds.

Uwe Ludwig

3rd Dec 2013 23:23 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

I would guess fluorapatite as well simply by looking at the photo, but as Rob suggests you may want to do a couple tests to confirm/discount my thoughts.

3rd Dec 2013 23:46 UTCMichael Wood

I have recently seen specimens of this blue apatite (fluorapatite) on offer from a Pakistan dealer on an auction site. His specimens were labelled as being from Badakshan, Afghanistan; and were associated with quartz and elbaite. So I reckon that is what it is - it looks identical.

Mike

4th Dec 2013 14:57 UTCRock Currier Expert

Can you scratch it a little with the point of a sharp knife blade?

9th Dec 2013 17:19 UTCMr Farooq

hardness is 7 to 7.5 & RI is 1.56-1.57 & very very weakly fluorescent

9th Dec 2013 17:42 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Well that rules out apatite! Beryl would be the best match.

9th Dec 2013 19:16 UTCMr Farooq

these more pic are added which can help u in indentification

10th Dec 2013 17:25 UTCDonald Peck

I just did a search on: hexagonal system, blue color, vitreous luster, hardness 7 to 7.5, RI 1.56 to 1.57. The only fallout is Beryl.

10th Dec 2013 19:51 UTCMr Farooq

Which kind of Beryl ? blue Beryl Or Aquamarine

10th Dec 2013 23:20 UTCWayne Corwin

"Which kind of Beryl ? blue Beryl Or Aquamarine"

Blue Beryl IS Aquamarine !

21st Apr 2015 18:50 UTCMr Farooq

Dear Friend

this mineral is identify & name of this minerals is Beryl var. Vorobyevite

thank you

21st Apr 2015 20:50 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Hello Mr. Farooq,

How much caesium is in it?

22nd Apr 2015 00:49 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

This specimen is quite similar in habit & appearance to materials from Khash & Kuran Wa Munjan Districts in Badakhshan Province, which were analyzed by Federico Pezzotta and determined to be Cs rich. I think it fair for Mr Farooq to make an assumption for an I.D. of Vorobyevite for this specimen without the need for any further analysis to insure the actual presence of Cs in this particular specimen.

Were it to be used for study, then of course a confirming analysis would need to be done first.

MRH

22nd Apr 2015 00:55 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Hello mark,

How much caesium did Federico Pezzotta find in it?

22nd Apr 2015 01:22 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Reiner,

Unfortunately there does not seem to be published report of it (as yet anyway). The analysis was conducted by request of a dealer who did not release the full account of the study. I tried to find the information elsewhere as well, but to no avail. And yes, I would like to see it myself, and feel it's a shame that it was not considered "important" enough to make note of (left to take the dealers word for it I fear). http://www.irocks.com/galleries/arkenstone-fine-minerals-vorobyevite-rosterite-gilgit-pakistan

MRH

22nd Apr 2015 01:49 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I wonder if these white beryls http://www.mindat.org/photo-38068.html have enough Caesium to be called Vorobyevite.

22nd Apr 2015 02:10 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

IDK, pending analysis, who could say?

Since we're on the subject, I have taken note of an earlier dissussion on this subject and see that there is some conflicting information about these supposed "Vorobyevite" from Badakhshan.

"We have several specimens thought to be Vorobyevite from recent finds in Deo Darrah Afghanistan that we are testing. I know that everybody has been talking about the potential Cesium content in these, but we got ahold of an email from Dr. Pezzotta and Rob Lavinsky from the 2012 finds in Deo Darrah... and Pezzotta mentioned detecting the alkali metal elements Na and K, but not notable Cs in the periphery of the crystals. I'm unsure if there were additional tests that later confirmed Cs content."

http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,9,351661,351661,quote=1

Perhaps considering these "vorobyevite" would be somewhat premature, prior to seeing an actual report of analysis.

MRH

22nd Apr 2015 04:11 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

An analysis would be interesting, of course, but would be useless for determining whether to apply the varietal name "vorobyevite", as the compositional boundaries of "vorobyevite" haven't been properly defined.

22nd Apr 2015 05:02 UTCDoug Daniels

But, if it's just a "variety", based on a slight chemical difference (a bit of Cs - not Ce [a few posts above]), the IMAMIAIFHWEUSYA (or whatever the abbreviation is - the naming bunch) won't care what you call it.

22nd Apr 2015 05:31 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Exactly, Doug - The IMA won't care, and neither will the systematic species collectors. So then it just becomes a marketing term to help sell it to anyone who happens to be bored with the name "Beryl", which is what we should really be calling it.

I don't mind people using varietal names, when the varietal name has been well-defined - Then the varietal name carries extra information not present in the species name. But when the name has as fuzzy a definition as "vorobyevite", then it just introduces more confusion.

22nd Apr 2015 14:17 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

According to Pavel Martynov on this thread http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,9,351661,351721#msg-351721 the Russians found no Cs in that beryl from Deo Darrah .

22nd Apr 2015 14:23 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I guess Vorobyevite is "sexier" than Aquamarine and since it is rarer would fetch a higher price. This may all just be a marketing ploy. It is also suspicious that till now Cs rich beryl has not been found in the color blue.

22nd Apr 2015 14:33 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis

Alfredo Petrov Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I don't mind people using varietal names, when the

> varietal name has been well-defined - Then the

> varietal name carries extra information not

> present in the species name.

Exactly so.

> But when the name has

> as fuzzy a definition as "vorobyevite", then it

> just introduces more confusion.

Well, fuzzy or not, it's been around for quite some time. Sinkansas (after an 1922 USSR publication) suggest that it was first recorded in trade in the late 18th C in the Transbaikal region just north of the border with Mongolia. There is a suggestion (but no evidence?) that various varieties of beryl from that area may have been traded since ancient times. Sinkansas was, of course writing before (and much before many of his primary sources) IMA declared that Cs-heavy beryl was a different species, that of pezzottaite. It seems to me that is where the dubiety begins,

The bonding of Cs into Beryl appears complex and only indirectly substitutional.The Cs ions are too large to substitute for the structural Be and also there is not a match of ionic charges. So, the Cs is trapped interstitially and needs to be accompanied by a structural substitution of Be by Li, Li being of the right size and with two Li required for every Cs ion. Does this work still hold as true? If it does, what is the structural differentiation that:

- Warrants a species' differentiation (i.e. pezzottaite).

- Sets the boundary between the Cs-rich beryl variety vorobyevite and the relatively newly minted species of pezzottaite?

There are other concerns I have too. It seems that pink beryl from Transbaikal is all vorobyevite and is elongate in form as is typical of most beryl. The pink pezzottaite form Madagascar has tabular form, implying the incorporation of an alkali metal (vis Cs &Li) into the lattice? The newly discovered Afghani vorobyevite is also tabular in form, contrary to elongate form of other beryl found in the same area.

Does anyone either have or know a reported quantitative analysis of the vorobyevite from Badakhshan?

Edit. Just cross-linked to http://www.mindat.org/forum.php?read,9,351661,351728#msg-351728 Looking forward to the results.

.

22nd Apr 2015 16:57 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

I'm sorry, but I can't help but bristle at the idea that because the IMA doesn't support varietal nomenclature, and isn't standing over your shoulder, ready to hit those knuckles of yours with a ruler, that you needn't exhibit any integrity at all when using these long standing and reasonably described varietal names. If you don't respect them, don't use them at all.

The System of Mineralogy of James Dwight Dana, 1837-1868: Descriptive Mineralogy - completing the work to 1909. (the first Dana volume that Beryl var. Volbeyervite appears. Absent from the 6th edition, 1898 & it's 1899 appendix).

“Vorobeyevite” - W. J. Vernadsky [Trav. Mus. Geol. Ac. Sc. St. Pet., 2, 81, 1908], Zs. Kr., 50, 73, 1911. Name given to caesium beryl because of the description of such beryl from Lipowka, Ural Mts., by Vorobyev. Description of crystals and anal. of this beryl given. Discussion of chem. comp. of Beryl.

A variety of Beryl described well over a century ago, where Cs content was it's defining characteristic. Boundries may not be clearly defined, however if there's no Cs at all, then you can't justify calling it var. Vorobeyevite. It's a simple matter of integrity I should think.

MRH

22nd Apr 2015 17:58 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

According to Anatoly Kasatkin "So called "blue vorobyevites/rosterites" didn't contain any Cs." I think the photos in Mindat need to be changed so this myth isn't perpetuated.

22nd Apr 2015 18:39 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

While we're at it, here's Dana's basic description of var. Rosterite, which does not make note of any unique elemental components.

The System of Mineralogy of James Dwight Dana, 1837-1868: Descriptive Mineralogy - completing the work to 1898

Rosterite Grattarola. 1 c. A slightly altered variety of beryl from Elba, named after Dr. G. Roster. It occurs in short prismatic to tabular doubly-terminated crystals. In polarized light a basal section is divided into six sectors, corresponding to the prismatic edges, for the three alternate of which the extinction is the same. Optically biaxial. Color pale rose-red. Anal. 1-4, Grattarola; 1, 2, from the ends of a crystal, which had a nucleus of normal beryl (anal. 3); 4, “typical rosterite.”

MRH

Personally, I'm all in favor of retaining these historical, albeit somewhat archaic, varietal names for specimens from the localities at which they were first described. I do however hesitate to promote their use beyond that purpose. At the very least, if they are used elsewhere, the characteristics of these specimens obviously need to correspond well with the original descriptions.

22nd Apr 2015 18:58 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis

Mark Heintzelman Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> I'm sorry, but I can't help but bristle at the

> idea that because the IMA doesn't support varietal

> nomenclature, and isn't standing over your

> shoulder, ready to hit those knuckles of yours

> with a ruler, that you needn't exhibit any

> integrity at all when using these long standing

> and reasonably described varietal names. If you

> don't respect them, don't use them at all.

I think we feel the same way. Where they are meaningful, varietal names are useful or, for some purposes, are essential.

> “Vorobeyevite” - W. J. Vernadsky , Zs. Kr.,

> 50, 73, 1911. Name given to caesium beryl because

> of the description of such beryl from Lipowka,

> Ural Mts., by Vorobyev. Description of crystals

> and anal. of this beryl given. Discussion of chem.

> comp. of Beryl.

> A variety of Beryl described well over a century

> ago, where Cs content was it's defining

> characteristic.

Yes, and there was/is also a third Russian locality in the Ukraine.

> Boundries may not be clearly

> defined, however if there's no Cs at all, then you

> can't justify calling it var. Vorobeyevite. It's

> a simple matter of integrity I should think.

Quite so. But there are three points here, I think:

(1) Since vorobyevite is a variety of beryl that is Cs-rich (alkali), should not the crystals be tabular? Is Russian material from all three sites tabular?

(2) It has been stated that in the Russian vorobevite it is a prerequisite not only for Cs to be incorporated interstitially (too large for structural replacement of Be) but that to balance the ionic charges 2x Li have to be incorporated in structural replacement for Be for every one Cs held interstitially. Since this AIUI the differentiation of pezzottaite from beryl, should the Russian vorobyevite not also not be classified as pezzottaite or, if not, what *is* the differentiation of pezzottaite from vorobyevite?

(3) Has anyone got a good quantitative analysis for the 'vorobyevite' from Deo Darrah that they would care to share here?

22nd Apr 2015 19:27 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Owen, I think we are somewhat in agreement on this point as well, as to where the confusion may have begun.

As to whether there are Russian "Vorobyevite" which actually qualify as pezzottaite, I don't know that there are. If so, it is simply a sign that, similar to "troostite", (now Willemite) Vorobyevite was either not defined accurately or completely enough that it qualified as a separate species. Either that, or the IMA that has simply disregarded grandfathering and has decided to make up their own nomeclature. I hope the latter isn't true, but I'm much more inclined to believe that the lab work on pezzottaite was far superior, and which earned the separate species designation.

The use of approved nomenclature would of course be the priority, and old varietals simply "icing on the cake".

MRH

23rd Apr 2015 00:59 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Owen, why are you assuming that a Cs-content corresponds with a tabular habit in beryls?

23rd Apr 2015 01:41 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

It may be because it is something that the dealer asserted about these Deo Darrah beryls, an elementary induced morphology.

I didn't find that claim particularly credible myself, but there again, it's a bit outside my area of competency.

MRH

23rd Apr 2015 02:10 UTCOwen Melfyn Lewis

@ Alfredo., Not Cs-rich per se but rather alkali metal-rich of which (as we know) Cs it but one and far from the most common.

@ Mark. Yes of course, modern analysis methods outstrip by far in accuracy the capabilities of those 90-100 years ago and it is these modern methods that have differentiated beryl and pezzottaite as discrete species. However, the differentiation of vorobyevite vis a vis pezzottaite is not clear from any of the sources on my shelf or from the discussions in this forum. I'm left with an uneasy feeling that what is now classified as pezzotaite may be what, 100 years ago, was first named as vorobyevite.

As for the blue tabular crystals from Deo Darah, if someone has the interest and the means of obtaining as complete a quantitative chemical analysis as possible, I have a small specimen to offer up for testing (slight polycrystalline matrix attached - maybe albite).

23rd Apr 2015 02:43 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Owen,

Dana was handed a detailed report (for the day) on vorobyevite, so it must exist somewhere, but I do not have any additional reference for it in my own library either, nor can I locate any additional detail of it on the web. Regardless, an accepted detailed lab work was done more recently and named pezzotaite. Even if vorobyervite turned out to be the same said mineral, the credit still goes to the first certified lab work on a species.

Detailed analysis for pezzotaite is available, so if a minerals analysis corresponds with that I.D., even a russian specimen formally known as "vorobyevite", it's still pezzotaite, so I don't see the problem. Again, personally I would rather that such old variety nomenclature remain in use only for historical reasons on material from the original find/analysis, but as long as it isn't missing the characteristics generally noted of vorobyevite, i.e. detectable Cs, at least no one will formally contend it's usage.

MRH

23rd Apr 2015 03:10 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Some tabular beryls have no significant alkalis, so I doubt that there is a relationship between crystal habit and composition, but I could be wrong.

23rd Apr 2015 06:28 UTCJoel Dyer

Yes, it would be interesting to read more systematic analyses of Cs- and Li- content vs. crystal form in beryl. So far what I've managed to find [with my very limited access and knowledge] indicates there is no conclusive connection, though there was one text where there was an apparent connection between alkali content and crystal form, just can't find that document now :-( ...

Apropos, especially pin(kish) beryl but also white beryl from the Viitaniemi, Eräjärvi location contained up to 7% Cs according to my sources; the highest rates were apparently in pinkish beryl. I'm including, just for the interest, a picture of a slightly damaged pinkish beryl that is 5cm wide and 2,5cm high: the color should be a little bit more pink than is shown in the picture & the yellowish spots are Fe-oxide tainting. However, I have found chunks of large pinkish beryl that would see to indicate pretty average prismatic form.

As is known, a single huge block of pollucite was found at Viitaniemi, and occasionally with luck and sharp eyes one can find some leftover pieces of this block.

There is a researcher writing an extensive paper on Finnish beryls from perhaps all known domestic locations, so let's see if some day it will be possible to read about some previously unknown particulars.

Cheers,

23rd Apr 2015 16:24 UTCMr Farooq

Aquamarine

Deo Darrah, Kuran Wa Munjan District, Badakhshan, Afghanistan

http://www.irocks.com/minerals/specimen/41611

can you see the growth of crystal ???

23rd Apr 2015 16:41 UTCMr Farooq

these picture are few good view then first one which i posted,blue color is much then http://www.irocks.com/galleries/arkenstone-fine-minerals-vorobyevite-rosterite-gilgit-pakistan

6th May 2015 20:14 UTCMr Farooq

Some body here told me this mineral is vorobyevite

i own first conform it from test XRF

soon give you here result of test

6th May 2015 20:57 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Have a look at recent postings at http://www.mindat.org/mesg-105-351767.html This material has not been identified as anything other than aquamarine at this time. Studies on this material is going on and to call it more or other than aquamarine is just guessing. If you are seriously analysing this stuff you will need EMPA and SCXRD and should probably coordinate with Prof. Pezzotta in Milan.

14th Dec 2016 11:06 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Analyses of rosettes of tabular aquamarine from "Kuran, district Wamunjan" (probably from Deo Darrah) reported in Weerth & Weiß (2016) show, apart from Na, increased levels of iron (~1.5 wt.% FeO) and cesium (~0.15 wt.% Cs2O), plus traces of scandium (~0,01 wt.% Sc2O3).

Weerth, A. & Weiß, S. (2016): Neues aus der Grenzregion Pakistan/Afghanistan. Lapis, 41 (10), 30-39 (in German).

Edit 2: Improved posting.

14th Dec 2016 20:57 UTCIan Nicastro

This is good info... I feel perhaps you should post the citation to the talk page for the Deo Darrah location as that thread has the most comprehensive discussion on the subject?

What was the % for Na they saw?

15th Dec 2016 11:32 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Had already added the info to the page.

> What was the % for Na they saw? Article didn't say.

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