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Identity HelpGerman minerals
14th Jul 2009 22:05 UTCE. Riech
but for about 20 percent of the listed/shown minerals from Germany the added name of the place of origin is not correct.
I live in the famous mining region "Harz" near St. Andreasberg, Clausthal, Neudorf and Wolfsberg, collect minerals from this region since 45 years.
Some pictured minerals from "Neudorf" are in reality from Grund, 60kms away, others were found in the "Siegerland", 250kms away!
You have to tell us the photo numbers (or better give the direct links), otherwise we can't send complaints on any photo.
14th Jul 2009 22:08 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
Not correct are for example: No. 36113 / 82719 (the plate ist typical for the Wiemannsbucht-Mine near Grund) / 228029 / 36540 + 36541 / 13453 / 31337 (this Elyite comes from the slags of the dumps of an old smelting-work near Altenau) / 49796 (right name: Bergwerkswohlfahrt-Mine).
14th Jul 2009 23:02 UTCE. Riech
14th Jul 2009 23:52 UTCRoger Lang Manager
hard to tell especially the galenas by the picture .. the sample you refer to be as from Wiemannsbucht shaft - Erzbergwerk Grund looks like many other siderite-galena specimens from Germany so i wouldn´t really tell by the picture and i have seen many of them during the last 30 years. Could you give an example of what you would attribute to the Siegerland and listed as Neudorf?
A real problem which occurs - so far i agree with you - is if minerals from germany are posted which come from old collections with labels with old locality names which do not longer exist (Nassau province for instance) and so may be attributed incorrectly. You may post questionable photos by inserting the URL link into the post so it is easier to follow up - as Uwe already pointed out.
These minerals, written that they are from St. Andreasberg in the Harz-Mountains, come from other localities:
14th Jul 2009 23:52 UTCE. Riech
181783 / 224738 - is supposed to be native antimony, but comes from Andreasberg / 51154 is Nickeline from Richelsdorf or a quarry near Wolfshagen, Harz / 156117 / 162787 (presumably from Hartenstein, Saxony) / 26252 (comes from Rammelsberg Mine near Goslar, Harz).
Hi Mr. Lang,
15th Jul 2009 00:14 UTCE. Riech
even collectors in the 19th century could be in error: I have seen old labels with the handwritten text "Freiberg / Harz" and "Clausthal / Rhineland". But more frequent is the fact that the minerals were mixed up in a drawer when some were removed and later put back - but into a wrong mineral-box.
So it is important to glue a number on the mineral and write the same number on the label.
15th Jul 2009 05:58 UTCRob Woodside Manager
E. Riech wrote:
"Not correct are for example: No. 36113 / 82719 (the plate ist typical for the Wiemannsbucht-Mine near Grund) / 228029 / 36540 + 36541 / 13453 / 31337 (this Elyite comes from the slags of the dumps of an old smelting-work near Altenau) / 49796 (right name: Bergwerkswohlfahrt-Mine). "
The first 3 photos show siderite with some curvature to the xls. All the Neudorf siderite I have seen are sharp uncurved rhombs. I don't know about the rest
15th Jul 2009 06:16 UTCRob Woodside Manager
E. riech wrote:
"These minerals, written that they are from St. Andreasberg in the Harz-Mountains, come from other localities:
181783 / 224738 - is supposed to be native antimony, but comes from Andreasberg / 51154 is Nickeline from Richelsdorf or a quarry near Wolfshagen, Harz / 156117 / 162787 (presumably from Hartenstein, Saxony) / 26252 (comes from Rammelsberg Mine near Goslar, Harz). "
You are certainly right about the purported Arsenic- it is Antimony and the "Breithauptite" is Nickeline and not fron St Andreasberg. Rob Lavinsky has given us permission to edit his photos so I changed the arsenic to Antimony. I also changed the Breithauptite to Nickeline and put in the caption that it is not from Andreasberg. Perhaps some one knows the locality?
15th Jul 2009 13:15 UTCRoger Lang Manager
agree / confirm with the following:
http://www.mindat.org/photo-26252.html is typical for Rammelsberg (very similar specimen pictured on the title page of the 'Emser Heft' about the Rammelsberg mine)
http://www.mindat.org/photo-49796.html Bergwerkswohlfahrt mine is the correct name as E. Riech pointed out.
http://www.mindat.org/photo-181783.html could be from Saxony but i wouldn´t dare to decide this,
No. 26252 is certainly the so called "Galmei" (Smithsonite) on Calcite xx from the upper parts of the Rammelsberg Mine near Goslar, Harz-Mountains / Lower Saxony, Germany.
15th Jul 2009 13:19 UTCE. Riech
No. 51154 is Nickeline - an for the origin there are some possibilities: If it was found before 1945 it can come from Richelsdorf (Hesse, Germany) or the "Kupferschiefer"-region around Eisleben and Mansfeld (Saxony-Anhalt, Germany). If found around 1975 its origin can also be the Heimberg quarry near Wolfshagen, Harz / Lower Saxony, Germany.
I knew that i had read the name before B)-
15th Jul 2009 13:35 UTCRoger Lang Manager
Riech, E., Steinkamm, U. und Walcher, E. (1987). RAMMELSBERG / HARZ. Emser Hefte, Jg.87, Nr.4.
I do not have my copy here but i remembered the title page with the calcites,
The questionable nickeline has sharp inclusions that I haven't seen in German pieces:
15th Jul 2009 17:01 UTCRob Woodside Manager
But you do see it at Tamdrost:
Perhaps those more familiar with Morrocan minerals might confirm this?
15th Jul 2009 17:13 UTCRoger Lang Manager
i don´t think there is a chance to allocate this specimen without further info. Mr. Riech already posted the german locales which i also would suggest IF it is a german specimen. If you look at Talmessi/Iran nickeline it looks the same as that from Morocco and there are much more possible localities.
I (unfortunately) also must agree with Mr. Riech that there is quite a bit of mess at the Harz Mts. localities, especially at Bad Grund. Have to leave now but will have a look later,
Roger I think you are right, so I'll kill the questionable nickeline. Actually I just removed it from the general galleries, in case some can add something. We are not short of massive nickeline photos.
15th Jul 2009 17:25 UTCRob Woodside Manager
15th Jul 2009 22:40 UTCRoger Lang Manager
as i wrote earlier the Bad Grund locales are a bit messed up. This is of course due to the mixup of older and newer locality infos and the consolidation of older mines.
Instead of http://www.mindat.org/loc-6016.html
i would suggest the following structure:
.. - Erzbergwerk Grund (Grund ore mine)
.... - Western ore field (Hilfe Gottes)
....... - West shaft (Westschacht)
....... - Achenbach shaft (Achenbachschacht)
....... - Hilfe Gottes shaft (Hilfe Gottes-Schacht
.... - Eastern ore field (Bergwerkswohlfahrt)
....... - Knesebeck shaft (Knesebeckschacht) ????? eastern or western, don´t know
....... - Wiemannsbucht shaft (Schacht Wiemannsbucht)
....... - Meding shaft (Medingschacht) .. this is situated in the Innerste valley .. maybe this already belongs to Clausthal-Zellerfeld.
Additionally Tiefer-Georg-Stollen and Ernst-August-Stollen belonged to this mine. The Erzbergwerk Grund comprises the former Hilfe Gottes mine and the Bergwerkswohlfahrt mine. There is enough of literature to add infos on this mine if the structure has been reset but i would like to hear/read Mr. Riechs opinion on this .. he has published about this region and knows MUCH more than i do. What´s for sure is that the now available locality info is wrong as Wiemannsbucht is only one site of the mine and no village or else.
Like to read your opinions .. and i´d like to invite Mr. Riech to add the infos he can give .. would be a really valuable contribution!
Hi Mr. Woodside,the Nickeline from the Heimberg near Wolfshagen, Lower Saxony/Germany (and also some old specimens of Nickeline from Bieber, Spessart Mountains, Hesse/Germany) show similar inclusions (dark grey to dark green) as shown on the No. 51154-photo. The Nickeline from Riechelsdorf (near Sontra, Hesse/Germany) has sometimes inclusions of a white mineral and (what i knew) differ from the specimen No. 51154.
16th Jul 2009 21:26 UTCE. Riech
The problem of the names of the mines near Bad Grund, Harz/Lower Saxony/ Germany is the fact, that the names have the origin in different times: from the 19th century (Bergwerkswohlfahrt mine; belonged to the Westphalia of Napoleon Bonaparte with the mines in Clausthal) over the 1940-years (Wiemannsbucht mine) to the 1970-years (Westschacht / western shaft). Some names only describe a shaft (Meding shaft; Knesebeck shaft). All belonged to the now closed lead-zinc-mine Hilfe Gottes.
The situation is more complicated by the fact, that in the city of Bad Grund were also old iron-mines (with different names) in the surrounding of the Iberg. From the mining there came also specimens with minerals, typical for lead- and zinc-mining.
16th Jul 2009 22:36 UTCRock Currier Expert
Thanks very much for your interest and help in trying to sort out the mess we have here on mindat with our images. I think your estimate of about 20 percent of the image localities/species being incorrect on the images might hold true across the board on mindat images though there will be probably five percent (I hope it is not more) that we may never be able to correct for sure). Sometimes I look at the large number of errors and just give up and go away and do something else because the job of correcting them all is such a large job. Again, thanks for your help and thanks to the guys that keep trying to make things better.
Could someone with a better knowledge of german localities please comment on Roger's suggestions and maybe use them and Mr. Riech's info to update what we have here? Thanks so much.
16th Jul 2009 23:01 UTCRob Woodside Manager
I'd like to think we were doing better than 20%, but how could one tell??? I too often suffer from being overwhelmed. As with house cleaning the trick is to do a bit at a time. The hard part is keeping at it.
17th Jul 2009 06:51 UTCMichael Berghäuser
nice discussion; I just want to point out that the same problem of "wrong locations" can be seen at the minerals form the Bad Ems - Braubach- Friedrichssegen region.
I would estimate that 10 to 20 % of the assignments are wrong.
Hello german specialists! This is a superb old german Malachite that needs correct assignment. A large thumbnail, with incredible distinct, mostly terminated, emerald green "primary" up to 8 mm Malachite crystals in the classic gossan matrix. Comes from an old 1900-1950 collection. It is important for my Europa suite and, hope, for the database. I see some similar in Siegerland localities, but would like be sure. Please help me! Simone
17th Jul 2009 08:18 UTCSimone Citon Expert
17th Jul 2009 10:31 UTCMichael Berghäuser
luckely I do collect the Bad Ems areas, not Siegerland,
malachite from there and in your habitus is very common, so for me impossible to assign. Maybe a key is to give us more informations about this "old 1900-1950 collection", what was the focus on it?
17th Jul 2009 13:57 UTCRoger Lang Manager
your malachite shows the typical habit of the specimens originating from the Friedrich mine near Wissen,
This mine is said to have yielded the best german malachite crystals (which is certainly a subjective view). Some very good specimens from there can be seen in Aachen in the collection of the RWTH.
But - agreeing with Michael - there also have been other Siegerland mines with similar specimens (like Käusersteimel and Wingertshardt) so your specimen can´t be assigned 100 %. I´d give it a 80 % probability B)
Hi Roger, hi Simone,
17th Jul 2009 15:52 UTCMichael Berghäuser
Friedrich mine near Wissen was one of my thoughts. I don´t want to deal with probabilities. Because one time the former uncertain location is fixed ... And the specimen can much easier be sold if you have a location ....
Here is a overview of my "uncertain candidates". (I must say that it is sad for me to see that very often there is a lack of seriousness, not only from amateurs, moreover from people dealing with specimens ...)
1. http://www.mindat.org/photo-51157.html Friedrichssegen no matter what Rob is telling ...
2. http://www.mindat.org/photo-140690.html 100% Friedrichssegen
1. http://www.mindat.org/photo-56662.html Braubach
2. http://www.mindat.org/photo-26710.html Braubach
3. http://www.mindat.org/photo-221013.html Braubach its yours Roger B)
4. http://www.mindat.org/photo-214790.html Braubach no matter what Rob is telling ...
1. http://www.mindat.org/photo-54290.html I have no idea where it is from? Why this mine? no matter what Rob is telling ...
Location Bad Ems call it so if you want to make it easy, it fits nearly always ...8-)
1. http://www.mindat.org/photo-78118.html Friedrichssegen
2. http://www.mindat.org/photo-52772.html Friedrichssegen
3. http://www.mindat.org/photo-67875.html Friedrichssegen
4. http://www.mindat.org/photo-52744.html Braubach
17th Jul 2009 17:16 UTCRoger Lang Manager
totally forgot to change the pyro to Braubach ... good that you reminded me of that, fixed now.
Your Avatar changed today :D .... now this one´s better than Bayern Munich hehe,
P.S. fully agree with you about the above listed specimens ... regarding the Bergmannstrost copper - could be but not to tell by the picture.
Michael, Thanks for this. I'm surprised you are able to assign mine localities to Bad Ems pieces and I wonder if you could edit your last post and say why you are certain of these localities. Thank you very much.
17th Jul 2009 19:24 UTCRob Woodside Manager
17th Jul 2009 20:00 UTCRoger Lang Manager
Michael is specialized on the Bad Ems region .. maybe a Bad Ems Guru B)
.. back to serious, Michael has a lot of experience regarding this region and i fully agree with his opinion. You can tell the 'Ems' pyros by their habit.
Hi Roger, so you aren´t a Bayern fan?;)
17th Jul 2009 20:36 UTCMichael Berghäuser
I´m very into this area, I have started in 1984 collecting minerals on the dumps of the Friedrichssegen Mine, super micros of silver, ramsbeckite, ...and over the years I have developed from a pure mineral collector buying a lot of stuff to a collector of things concerning maps, postcards, lamps, mining history, minerals, ect.
Moreover I try to take photos of minerals from other collections/museums/internet, etc. so I can compare and identify most of the stuff easily.
I do this very elaborate concerning all my other spezial subjects you can see in my homepage mb-minerals.de
I don´t want to just keep a super pyro in my show case, my goal is to get more about the mine, the former owners, the circumstances of the finding, etc. The more accurate the better.
And I regret "collectors" you have no idea about the locations ...just buying top top top specimens to show off, maybe only one piece relying on questionable dealers relying on questionable labels ...
That´s all for now, hope my thoughts and English can be understand.
Some of these guys are from the red and green Mafia for sure. I'm glad that checked in with their knowledge. Now we can hound them for information when ever we have a question about German minerals. I wonder if I could get them to look at the German Rhodochrosite pictures and localities and tell me how badly I screwed up.
18th Jul 2009 00:59 UTCRock Currier Expert
When time enough (and rainy weather not allowing to visit the localities where -even today- good looking or rare minerals can be found in the neighbourhood where i live, the Harz-mountains in Germany) it is always a pleasure to have a look on the photos in the www. So it is inevitable to compare those pictured specimens with the knowledge (of about 50 years collecting) about the minerals, their appearances and the paragenesis - especially from the regions, which are the main focus of my collection (St. Andreasberg; Rammelsberg; Clausthal; Neudorf; Wolfsberg; Bad Grund in the Harz-mountains, but also Bad Ems; Adorf in Waldeck, Hesse; Beihilfe-mine, Halsbruecke near Freiberg, Saxony, and others).
23rd Jul 2009 23:38 UTCE. Riech
The claimed origin of the ID-No. 137256 ; 236653 ; 139282 ; 189283 and 228029 written as from Neudorf, Saxony-Anhalt, is without doubt not from this place. No. ID 189283 has Clausthal, Lower Saxony, as its origin. It would be good to correct the text, that is added to the photos because it seems not useful for young collectors (or collectors living far away without having a chance to study the concerned localities).
Hello to all,
24th Jul 2009 07:34 UTCMichael Berghäuser
hallo Herr Riech,
it is a good feeling that I´m not the only person who has doubts about minerals and their locations ...
I hope you can post some photos of Bad Ems specimens (and maybe more from my focus from Taunus and Hunsrück) in the next future.
Hi all, hello Michael,
26th Jul 2009 13:20 UTCEberhard Riech Expert
sure i want to do so, but (because I´m rather new on mindat without greater experiance) have some problems with the uploading of photos. But: learning by doing (and mistakes)!
I also will add some localities, not yet mentioned here (Todtberg near Herzog-Juliushütte; some places in the Weserbergland and others). And the hierarcy of the localities is not up to date (Lautenthal, Wolfshagen and Astfeld belong to Langelsheim, Harz Mts., Lower Saxony, Germany, and all three villages have some mineral-localities).
Michael, if You have a lot of knowledge of the mindat.system, maybe we can correspondend directly in German.
Hi all, hello Eberhard,
26th Jul 2009 16:33 UTCRoger Lang Manager
i see you have solved the photo upload problems, Eberhard, good to see you adding specimen pictures. If you have problems with the mindat system you can contact me via PM (geht dann auch deutsch B) ).
I hope to find the time in autumn to check more and more german localities and will try to add more infos on those i am familiar with. Rock, i am still in due about some german rhodo locales, i know ... almost finished Oberneisen but the text file is at my office and i am in holidays (until tomorrow :? )
Have a nice sunday evening,
cheers & Glueckauf
Mr. Reich -
26th Jul 2009 16:41 UTCEdward Rosenzweig Expert
The tetrahedrite and galena pictured is in my personal collection. I just read this topic and saw that the locality is in question! Although I try to label my specimens as accurately as possible, I sometimes rely on the dealer for information. In this case, I purchased it in Munich a few years back and relied on the label accompanying the specimen. Could you please tell me what locality it is from and what leads you to that opinion? This way I can avoid such errors in the future!
Thanks for your help!
26th Jul 2009 18:10 UTCMichael Berghäuser
if you have photos from my locations, just send me them and I will post them here on mindat. Don´t worry how much they are. It is always a pleasure to see new specimens from Taunus and Hunsrück.
"Hier das in Deutsch:
Eberhard, wenn Du viele Fotos hast, kann ich Sie für Dich hier in mindat einfügen; ich mach das gerne.
Hier ist meine Mailadresse dafür email@example.com; hab da maximal 1 GB, also 1000 MB Platz, das sollte reichen
Lass uns dann Details darüber klären ..."
And it is not a matter of knowledge to post photos here, just like mineral collecting it is all about practice, practise and a good common sense ("Menschenverstand").)
I hope and I enjoy stiring up some mislabeling here over all borders ...
26th Jul 2009 21:03 UTCEberhard Riech Expert
I´m just beginning to make photos of some parts of my collection and it pleases me, when the results are good looking. And in the same way can it be a pleasure to work with Mindat, adding photos and informations about new places, minerals were found or may still be found.
Thanks for Your offer and help. But I have normally enougt time and patience to doing it myself. If I need help I will send a mail.
Hi Mr. Rosenzweig,
for the identification of the place where the specimen was found it seems necessary to look on the matrix. But it is sure, that this Galenite xx on Siderite xx cannot have its origin in the Neudorf-mining-revier. The Siderite xx there are remarkable and different from other locations. They are always typical rhomboedric without "Parkettierung" (parquetted?) - and have a special lustre. Please compare with the photos here in Mindat - most pictures from Neudorf, added here, show the typical appearance.
Your specimen may come from the region around Clausthal, Harz Mts., Lower Saxony, or the Siegerland-region, Germany. I think that it looks not typical for only one mine. Sorry.
Mistakes regarding the type of mineral (easy to correct) or the place of origin are rather widespread. I own old labels (from around 1850) with undoubtedly mistakes.
27th Jul 2009 15:44 UTCSebastian Möller Expert
The Malachite specimen: Victoria Mine has been my first guess, too.
The Galena/Tetrahedrite specimen: I'd think Clausthal or Siegerland, too. Typically, tetrahedrites from Clausthal are covered with tiny chalcopyrites. I'd guess rather Siegerland , but there have been so many siderite mines in the Siegerland, so you cannot easily tell from where it is.
27th Jul 2009 17:47 UTCTKMin
Here´s another one with wrong location:
Thats not from the Theodor mine at Tellig, there is never Pyromorphite found, only primary ore minerals and Quartz xls. But in the text of this picture there is (nearly) the right location discribed: Merkur Mine, Bad Ems, Hesse, Germany //But Bad Ems is not Hesse, its Rheinland-Pfalz.
Hi Mr. Rosenzweig,
28th Jul 2009 20:43 UTCEberhard Riech Expert
i compared the specimen ID 156117 with a lot of Harz-specimens in my collection and collections of friends: Your specimen has the following origin:
Wiemannsbucht shaft, Hilfe Gottes mine, Bad Grund, Harz, Lower-Saxony, Germany. It must be a find in the 1960ies. This ascribe is nearly 100%. That it is not from St. Andreasberg is 100percent.
Please note: my name is Riech - not Reich (this means rich; my name "smell").
If You have another question depending Harz-minerals please contact; I´ll do my very best.
Best regards and Glückauf!
Mr. Riech -
28th Jul 2009 21:27 UTCEdward Rosenzweig Expert
I apologize for the misspelling of your name! Thank you for the information regarding the correct locality. I've corrected the photograph so it now appears in the right gallery.
30th Jul 2009 21:41 UTCEberhard Riech Expert
I have for You -as a specialist in Taunus-minerals (from Germany)- a question: I own an very old mineral-label belonging to pyromorphite xx, on which is written: "Johanniterzeche". May this be an old name for the Jeanette mine in the Taunus mountains? I´m not a specialist of this region.
I think, that the name changed (in french time - Napoleon Bonaparte- it was named in french, before or later the mine was belonging to the holy order Johanniter) . But You can give me more information?
30th Jul 2009 22:18 UTCRoger Lang Manager
i know from my friend Michael Ochel (who gave me the opportunity to photograph some of his Rheinisches Schiefergebirge specimens two days ago) and who knows the area quite well, that Jeanette mine was also named Johannette earlier .. so Johanniter could be possible. I will ask him when i get him on the phone.
Here an example of a Jeanette pyro from his collection:
Cheers and Glueckauf
Its the red and green Mafia flaunting their goods again! That one will definitely appear in a Best Minerals article.
31st Jul 2009 06:37 UTCRock Currier Expert
Good Morning Eberhard,
31st Jul 2009 07:24 UTCMichael Berghäuser
as long as I know from my region is "Johanitter-Zeche" unknown; It could be Kransberg; if you would be so kind to post a photo this could help a lot.
@ Rock: BTW: Who are members of the "red and green Mafia" ??
I only know the "Kransberg connection" or "Kransberg Buube" = slang for guys"
Do you have the same connections in USA? ...
Hope to here more ...
31st Jul 2009 11:52 UTCRock Currier Expert
The red and green Mafia only come out of hiding only at night and they are difficult to see. One minute there is a good German rhodochrosite or a great Pyromorphite and the next it has vanished. So at least you know they have been there.
Hi All, hi Eberhardt Riech,
1st Aug 2009 16:52 UTCGeorg Graf
just some thoughts about grouping the Hilfe-Gottes-Mine locality.
What do You think about a more "geologic" grouping:
1. Hilfe Gottes Mine 1.1. Silbernaal Vein System 1.1.1 Western Ore Field II 1.1.2. Western Ore Field I 1.1.3. 800-900 W Ore Field 1.1.4. Achenbach Shaft Ore Field 1.1.5. Eastern Ore Field 1.1.6. Wiemannsbucht Ore Field 1.1.7 Silbernaal Ore Field 1.2. Laubhütter Vein System 1.2.1. Laubhütter Ore Field.
In my humble opinion the shafts are not suited for grouping, because the Achenbach Shaft was the main hoisting shaft. So far as I know, since 1908 nearly all ore was brought out of the mine by the Achenbach Shaft, which stands quite near to the ore concentration plant.
An other possibility: No locality grouping under "Hilfe Gottes Mine". If someone has near information, e. g. about the ore field the spezimen was found in, he/she can give this information in the long text of the photo.
Greetings from Goslar
2nd Aug 2009 16:37 UTCEberhard Riech Expert
I would prefer the second possibility with one change: a lot of old labels name the location "Wiemannsbucht-Schacht" (Wiemannsbucht-shaft).
Because of the rather long distance, the time, the specimens were found and sometimes a "typical appearance" these part of the consolidated mines should be mentioned separately.
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