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MineralsMendeleevite (of Vernadsky 1914)

25th Oct 2019 16:57 UTCMichael Hatskel

The page states:
Synonym of:Betafite (of Hogarth 1977), Mendeleevite-(Ce), Mendeleevite-(Nd)

That is incorrect: Mendeleevite is NOT a synonym of Mendeleevite-(Ce) or Mendeleevite-(Nd).

See the correct note on the Mendeleevite-(Ce) page:
Not to be confused with mendeleevite - a synonym for a local variety of betafite from Slyudyanka region.
Same note shall be added to the Mendeleevite-(Nd) page.

25th Oct 2019 21:02 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Researchers that re-use old names that originally applied to something completely different (and hence may sow confusion) really should have their future naming privileges revoked.  Granted, sitting back while SHELXL solves our crystal structures is exhausting work, but have we really become so lazy that we can't do a bit of research to uncover those earlier name uses? And in lieu of that, are we really so bereft of ideas that we can't come up with original mineral names, given the hundreds of languages and hundreds of thousands of words in each to pick from?

And at the next level up of responsibility, the IMA officials, who should be cognizant of such issues but seem unconcerned and still vote yes to these unresearched proposals, should similarly have their rights to vote on new mineral names suspended.  Let them go back to debating new ways to classify amphiboles (just kidding... please don't do that!), or better yet, ruminating on that next mineral of the year.

grrr...

25th Oct 2019 22:41 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Absolutely right Frank, it happens way too often!  Betafite itself is another classic example, where it changed from a species to a group name but it seems almost all old specimens labelled betafite no longer belong to that group. Wacky and very confusing when reading old (or even quite recent) literature! 

Also wacky to my thinking is how some people use “ synonym” for a series or subgroup such as the new Mendeleevites. A synonym in English means the terms are interchangeable, which doesn’t work for distinct species.  Anyway hopefully that’s my rants over for the day!

We also have mendeleyevite listed, like with the original Mendeleev it’s only with Dana 1944 as a reference, and not to my hand right now. This needs checking for original references and to see if one is a typo or whether both were used, and are they varieties or synonyms?

25th Oct 2019 22:50 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Ralph... thank you for not letting me be the lone ranting voice in the woods...lol.  Sometimes I wonder if I'm the only one who finds some of these "official" processes entirely without logic.  Glad to see I'm not alone...    :-)

I guess there'll be no invites for us to the next IMA yuckity-yuck black-tie affair... ha ha.

26th Oct 2019 03:12 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Hi Frank
Don't get me going on the IMA and mineral names - I'm still trying understand Burke, E.A.J.'s article on Tidying up Minerals names back in 2008. Burke was a chairman of the CNMNC)

Michael

As far as I can tell the only synonym of Mendeleevite-(Ce) should be IMA2009-092.The only synonym for Mendeleevite-(Nd) should be IMA2015-031.
Now whether earlier literature called certain minerals by a particular name and have now been discredited/renamed or whatever altogether doesn't automatically give rise to the use of the synonym. 

Where changes have been made in the literature over time, then a simple note should be added to the description/name field such as:

This mineral XXX was named/identified in (year etc). Previous to this, the mineral was generally described as (or regarded as) being ZZZ or YYY. Such classification is now incorrect.

The name changes shown under Betafite (of Hogarth 1977) is a good example - shown under the name box.

What we then of course should have is a link to specific references.

I note however that under Betafite (of Hogarth 1977), the following are showns as synonyms of Betafite (of Hogarth 1977):

Blomstrandite; Hatchettolite; Mendeleyevite; Tantalohatchettolite; Titanbetafite (of Hogarth 1977); and Titanobetafite (of Hogarth 1977),
I don't consider that this is correct.

Synonym means the "equivalent of, and not something totally different altogether.

Hogarth in his paper in 1977 indicated that Hatchettolite (Smith 1877) was a synonym of uranpyroclore, and that the term should be dropped. I don't believe it qualifies as a synonym of Betafite at all.
Further:

Hogarth considered that Blomstrandite was also a possible uranpyrochlore - again the name does not qualify as a synonym.
And:
Hogarth suggested that Tantalohatchettolite was a synonym of uranmicrolite and not of Betafite.
Later discovery:
As Mendeleevite-(Ce) and Mendeleevite-(Nd) weren't known/described until 2013 and 2015 respectively I don't think that they should be regarded as synonyms of Betafite either.

Ralph
Hogarth considered that Mendeleevite and mendelejevite were synonyms of Betafite and I presume of each other.

I know its a Saturday so I may just be rambling on.

Perhaps someone with much more technical knowledge can add further.

26th Oct 2019 09:26 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Thanks Keith
Yes I think we need to go through this group and try to make some sense of it all. The formulae for the subgroups of this and the other pyrochlores could be done more systematically also. Fluornatrocoulsellite doesn’t fit the generalised formulae for the pyrochlores very well.

Yes Frank I have the upmost respect for the ability of Crystallographers to untangle the most incredible crystal structures but as to their abilities in naming and arranging minerals into groups and getting useful information on such to a lay audience, well... its just like watching someone trying to herd cats! But I’m not sure who else could do it.

28th Oct 2019 03:57 UTCGareth Evans

You think that is bad, you should see how some organometallic compounds are named, probably longer in terms of words and symbols than most organic compounds.

26th Oct 2019 21:00 UTCMichael Hatskel

Michael Hatskel  ✉️

Synonym of:Betafite (of Hogarth 1977), Mendeleevite-(Ce), Mendeleevite-(Nd)
Thanks to all for your responses. My last intent was to spark another episode of discontent with the IMA. :-)
For the time being, could we start with a small step of correcting an obvious error first: Mendeleevite being a variety of Betafite (an oxide) is clearly NOT a synonym of Mendeleevite-(Ce)/(Nb) (the silicates).
Would someone with the proper editing authority please go to the Mendeleevite page and remove Mendeleevite-(Ce) and Mendeleevite-(Nd) from the list of synonyms, and leave it just as 
Synonym of:Betafite (of Hogarth 1977)
(and maybe add a space after the colon).

As for the Mendeleevite vs. Mendeleyevite, they seem to be the two spelling versions of the same -- please note that the DANA7 reference is to the same page. I guess they can combined into one entry. I am sure that Prof. Dmitry Mendeleev would not mind...

Thanks again. 

26th Oct 2019 22:23 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

OK, I removed mendeleevite-(Ce) and mendeleevite-(Nd) as synonyms of mendeleevite on the latter's page.

An additional issue, however, which I didn't address in my correction, is if mendeleevite (the oxide "betafite of Hogarth 1977" version) actually occurs at Dara-i-Pioz, or if that's a part of the misnomer as well and so only the two new silicates occur there.  That "betafite" (whatever that is) might occur at Dara-i-Pioz is not geochemically implausible, so I was reluctant to make any changes in that regard without more information.  Although, as an aside, we should not be loading up localities with outdated mineral names, so my feeling is that if a Ca-Ti-dominant pyrochlore-supergroup oxide occurs there, we should nonetheless still discard the entry for 'mendeleevite'.

27th Oct 2019 17:39 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Ok. It's now actually worse than it was before.

The name Mendeleevite was an old name for betafite, and has subsequently been reused for a silicate 

In general usage now the term Mendeleevite should refer to the silicates, and the original name should be renamed to Mendeleevite (of ???) 

Right now the Mendeleevite page is a simple synonym of betafite which may be technically correct but confusing. 

27th Oct 2019 18:36 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

OK, agreed.

So, what additional changes should we do here to make this better?

As you suggest, the mendeleevite page should probably be changed to Mendeleevite (of ???).  I also propose the lone locality at Dara-i-Pioz of this antiquated name should also be removed, since I'm 99% sure that entry was intended to refer not to a synonym of the oxide, but rather to a "synonym" of the two silicates (which themselves are really distinct species and not synonyms of each other).

27th Oct 2019 20:16 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

Cookie says "just wait 6 months or a year - it'll just change again anyway...."

27th Oct 2019 20:45 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Yes as I suggested before we need to track down the original reference for the use and spelling of the name, and whether it’s really a specific variety? I added a note to old Mendeleevite about the confusion. 

Curiously searching for this name now gives no result, even though I edited it! There does not appear to be a series or group name defined for the new silicates; do we need one? 

The Dara-i-Pioz occurrence could be marked as questionable with a note.

27th Oct 2019 21:15 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

with just two members of the silicate series so far, only differing by the dominant REE, I'm not sure if it's worthwhile to start a new group, especially since unless we specially call it something like "mendeleevite-(REE) series", adding yet another name to this mess might just add to the confusion of whether one is referencing these new silicates or referencing the un-suffixed antiquated name for the oxide.

27th Oct 2019 21:22 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.

Palache, Charles, Harry Berman & Clifford Frondel (1944), The System of Mineralogy of James Dwight Dana and Edward Salisbury Dana Yale University 1837-1892, Volume I: Elements, Sulfides, Sulfosalts, Oxides. John Wiley and Sons, Inc., New York. 7th edition, revised and enlarged: 803-805.

The Hogarth reference (betafite of Hogarth) is too recent for Dana 7. See the above reference for its total content. We probably need "Betafite of Lacroix"! 

27th Oct 2019 21:35 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

05359170016018174143235.jpg

Actually, mendeleevite for betafite (spelled here in Dana's System of Mineralogy 7th ed. as "mendelejevite") appears to be earliest named by Vernadsky in 1914; reference is:

 5 Vernadsky, Ac. Sc. St. Pétersbourg, Bull., 8 [2], p. 1368, (1914)

27th Oct 2019 22:29 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

06890540016018174146343.jpg


OK, so with a bit of hunting, I actually found a PDF of Vernadsky's 1914 paper. My recognition of Cyrillic characters is pretty poor, but it does appear the mineral is mentioned on p. 1368.  The title of the paper is: Rapport sur l'étude des gisements des minéraux radioactifs de la Russie pendant l'été 1914.

Is there an interest in having the full PDF uploaded to the mindat files?  If so, how do I do that?

28th Oct 2019 00:19 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Mendeleyevite is local variety of enriched by U pyrochlore from western part of Baikal lake area. This variety wasn't chemically analyzed in times, when it was named.

So Mendeleyevite unable to be found in Dara-i-Pioz, simply because Dara-i-Pioz don't located in Prebaikalie nor Transbaikalie. "Betafites" of Dara-i-Pioz hasn't any similarity with Mendeleyevites of Prebaikalie - the first grows in peralkaline pegmatites, are crystaline, with completely settled A group close to 2 apfu, while the later grows in usual granite pegmatites (similar to ones of Southern Norway), are metamict and cation deficient.

I only once analyzed real Mendeleyevite -


It turned out not belonging to Betafite of Hogarth at all, it is Uranpyrochlore of Hogarth and according to present nomenclature it is right on the border line between Hydroxylcalcipyrochlore and "zero-valent dominant" pyrochlores.

28th Oct 2019 00:36 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Thanks Pavel,

So the one locality given on the oxide "mendeleyevite" (of Vernadsky, I suppose) page (which is Dara-i-Pioz), can be removed, and the oxide mineral can have its "old name for _____" page with some historical information but with no specific locality.  That's probably the best way to treat it, anyway.

EDIT: OK, I deleted the oxide "mendeleyevite" from Dara-i-Pioz; the two silicates of course are still there. There's also an entry for betafite (of Hogarth) for the Dara-i-Pioz locality, but I left that one alone.

28th Oct 2019 00:53 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Couple years ago I received for revision the article of guys from Tomsk State University on Prebaikalian Mendeleevites. The article was weak, as I remember. I don't know, was it published somewhere. But I can to ask. In the article were given some modern analyses belonging to different members of pyrochlore supergroup. Also, as I remember, there was given something similar to historical information. I don't understand about what you write, because don't see any localities at Mendeleevite page https://www.mindat.org/min-30199.html

28th Oct 2019 01:14 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

because shortly after I typed my previous post 45 min ago, I deleted "mendeleyevite" as a mineral from Dara-i-Pioz, and then cleared all the relevant caches

27th Oct 2019 22:38 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Thanks guys, so maybe we really need to have Mendelejevite (of Vernadsky), Mendelyeevite (of Bjolykke), Mendeleyevite (of Bjolykke), Betafite (of Lacroiz) and Betafite (of  Hogarth)?? I'm not sure we need dates in the names as long as we have the original references? But the name Mendeleevite actually does not appear to be used in these references, so maybe a typo when entered in Mindat?! The only reference to Mendeleevite I can find online is in The Great Soviet Encyclopedia, 3rd Edition (1970-1979): "Mendelyeevite (also Mendeleevite), a mineral of complex composition, consisting mainly of the niobotitanate of Ca, U, and the rare-earth elements". So I'm inclined to think we could leave Mendeleyevite and delete Mendeleevite as an obsolete typo?

We should really go through all the entries with Dana 1944 as a sole reference and try to add the original references also.

We do have potassicmendeleevite-(Ce) as an approved name but not yet approved mineral (whatever that means), with a similar formula so a group name may be appropriate?

28th Oct 2019 07:21 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

Bayliss lists mendeleevite as betafite and gives the reference as Min Mag 33:1134 (1964)

28th Oct 2019 12:42 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.

Note that Lacroix's name is dated to 1912, earlier than the 1914 issue. Traditional betafite should be: Betafite (of Lacroix).

28th Oct 2019 16:37 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Chester S. Lemanski, Jr. Manager  ✉️

Note that Lacroix's name is dated to 1912, earlier than the 1914 issue. Traditional betafite should be: Betafite (of Lacroix)
We are using the Hogarth 1977 definition of betafite for traditional 'betafite' before the great Pyrochlore reorganization.  


OK! I have changed the page again, it's now a variety of 'Pyrochlore Supergroup' which is how we handle other discredited names that were once part of the group.


Also, on an only slightly related matter, Pavel - do you know if the pyrochlores from Vishnevogorsk are plain pyrochlore or something else?

28th Oct 2019 16:42 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Answering my own question because Pavel already told us here 

28th Oct 2019 21:35 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

They are plain Pyrochlore (Pyrochlore Pyrochlorovich Pyrochlorov) exactly according to the Hogarth's nomenclature.

Burke forced all of us to jump into the pit, which Hogarth easily and elegantly bypassed. To share pyrochlores on natro- and calcio- is to go against nature. Because the ideal, best of all balanced pyrochlore has the formula NaCaNb2O6F, where Na=Ca. Fluornatropyrochlore and Fluorcalciopyrochlore are two idiotisms, because of these two "minerals" even haven't their Hawthornian end member formulas. From my point of view two points of the same crystal with formulas (Na1.01Ca0.98)1.99Nb2(O5.98OH0.02)6F and (Ca1.02Na0.88)1.90Nb2(O5.92OH0.08)6(F0.88OH0.12) aren't two different minerals, but is the single mineral - still the same simple/plain Pyrochlore.

This situation we may to observe almost in any Pyrochlore crystal from Vishnevye Mts (with addition of Hydroxylnatropyrochlore and Hydroxylcalciopyrochlore). The situation is similar to quiet idiocy.

This grief, as Griboyedov wrote, comes from excess of mind and separation from nature and its laws for the sake of bureaucracy.

28th Oct 2019 23:28 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Totally agree!

28th Oct 2019 22:31 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Pavel, I think we all share your grief at trying to understand such changes in mineral nomenclature!

Formulae for pyrochlore supergroup minerals eg. fluornatrocoulsellite suggest some ordering of Na/Ca but Im not sure if this is proven or general in other pyrochlore-structured minerals?

The current description for mendeleevite is much better but I made some small changes to note your description and analysis of your mendeleevite as Uranpyrochlore (which no longer exists either!).

I also amended the description of Betafite (of Hogarth) but think we probably do need a Betafite (of Lacroix) as the former was defined as a U-Ti mineral and the latter a U-Nb-dominant mineral, AFAIK?

28th Oct 2019 23:07 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager

Dear Ralph,you should clearly understand, that chemical data of Lacroix were simple erroneous(similar to original analyses of Lorenzenite, where Ti was confused with Zr, or Molengraafite, where Sr was erroneously determined as Ca).Look



So I am think, we don't need in Betafite (of Lacroix) to avoid of more misunderstandings.
Hogarth knew  much more about Betafite composition than Lacroix sometimes did.

29th Oct 2019 11:42 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Good point Pavel, I guess we now have trouble with EDS peak overlaps while the old mineralogists had trouble with co-precipitation in wet chemistry. Nevertheless its probably a good idea to explain a bit more on the Betafite page how it started life as a Nb/Cb oxide, turned into a Ti oxide, then split into a group? Else its confusing reading the old literature.
 
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