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30199
MineralsMendeleevite (of Vernadsky 1914)
25th Oct 2019 16:57 UTCMichael Hatskel
The page states:
Synonym of:Betafite (of Hogarth 1977), Mendeleevite-(Ce), Mendeleevite-(Nd)
That is incorrect: Mendeleevite is NOT a synonym of Mendeleevite-(Ce) or Mendeleevite-(Nd).
See the correct note on the Mendeleevite-(Ce) page:
Not to be confused with mendeleevite - a synonym for a local variety of betafite from Slyudyanka region.
Same note shall be added to the Mendeleevite-(Nd) page.25th Oct 2019 21:02 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
And at the next level up of responsibility, the IMA officials, who should be cognizant of such issues but seem unconcerned and still vote yes to these unresearched proposals, should similarly have their rights to vote on new mineral names suspended. Let them go back to debating new ways to classify amphiboles (just kidding... please don't do that!), or better yet, ruminating on that next mineral of the year.
grrr...
25th Oct 2019 22:41 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
Also wacky to my thinking is how some people use “ synonym” for a series or subgroup such as the new Mendeleevites. A synonym in English means the terms are interchangeable, which doesn’t work for distinct species. Anyway hopefully that’s my rants over for the day!
We also have mendeleyevite listed, like with the original Mendeleev it’s only with Dana 1944 as a reference, and not to my hand right now. This needs checking for original references and to see if one is a typo or whether both were used, and are they varieties or synonyms?
25th Oct 2019 22:50 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
I guess there'll be no invites for us to the next IMA yuckity-yuck black-tie affair... ha ha.
26th Oct 2019 03:12 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager
Don't get me going on the IMA and mineral names - I'm still trying understand Burke, E.A.J.'s article on Tidying up Minerals names back in 2008. Burke was a chairman of the CNMNC)
Michael
As far as I can tell the only synonym of Mendeleevite-(Ce) should be IMA2009-092.The only synonym for Mendeleevite-(Nd) should be IMA2015-031.
Now whether earlier literature called certain minerals by a particular name and have now been discredited/renamed or whatever altogether doesn't automatically give rise to the use of the synonym. Where changes have been made in the literature over time, then a simple note should be added to the description/name field such as:
This mineral XXX was named/identified in (year etc). Previous to this, the mineral was generally described as (or regarded as) being ZZZ or YYY. Such classification is now incorrect.
The name changes shown under Betafite (of Hogarth 1977) is a good example - shown under the name box.
What we then of course should have is a link to specific references.
I note however that under Betafite (of Hogarth 1977), the following are showns as synonyms of Betafite (of Hogarth 1977):
Blomstrandite; Hatchettolite; Mendeleyevite; Tantalohatchettolite; Titanbetafite (of Hogarth 1977); and Titanobetafite (of Hogarth 1977),
I don't consider that this is correct.Synonym means the "equivalent of, and not something totally different altogether.
Hogarth in his paper in 1977 indicated that Hatchettolite (Smith 1877) was a synonym of uranpyroclore, and that the term should be dropped. I don't believe it qualifies as a synonym of Betafite at all.
Further:Hogarth considered that Blomstrandite was also a possible uranpyrochlore - again the name does not qualify as a synonym.
And:Hogarth suggested that Tantalohatchettolite was a synonym of uranmicrolite and not of Betafite.
Later discovery:As Mendeleevite-(Ce) and Mendeleevite-(Nd) weren't known/described until 2013 and 2015 respectively I don't think that they should be regarded as synonyms of Betafite either.
Ralph
Hogarth considered that Mendeleevite and mendelejevite were synonyms of Betafite and I presume of each other.
Perhaps someone with much more technical knowledge can add further.
26th Oct 2019 09:26 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
Yes I think we need to go through this group and try to make some sense of it all. The formulae for the subgroups of this and the other pyrochlores could be done more systematically also. Fluornatrocoulsellite doesn’t fit the generalised formulae for the pyrochlores very well.
Yes Frank I have the upmost respect for the ability of Crystallographers to untangle the most incredible crystal structures but as to their abilities in naming and arranging minerals into groups and getting useful information on such to a lay audience, well... its just like watching someone trying to herd cats! But I’m not sure who else could do it.
28th Oct 2019 03:57 UTCGareth Evans
26th Oct 2019 21:00 UTCMichael Hatskel
Michael Hatskel ✉️
Synonym of:Betafite (of Hogarth 1977), Mendeleevite-(Ce), Mendeleevite-(Nd)Thanks to all for your responses. My last intent was to spark another episode of discontent with the IMA. :-)
For the time being, could we start with a small step of correcting an obvious error first: Mendeleevite being a variety of Betafite (an oxide) is clearly NOT a synonym of Mendeleevite-(Ce)/(Nb) (the silicates).
Would someone with the proper editing authority please go to the Mendeleevite page and remove Mendeleevite-(Ce) and Mendeleevite-(Nd) from the list of synonyms, and leave it just as
Synonym of:Betafite (of Hogarth 1977)
(and maybe add a space after the colon).As for the Mendeleevite vs. Mendeleyevite, they seem to be the two spelling versions of the same -- please note that the DANA7 reference is to the same page. I guess they can combined into one entry. I am sure that Prof. Dmitry Mendeleev would not mind...
Thanks again.
26th Oct 2019 22:23 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
An additional issue, however, which I didn't address in my correction, is if mendeleevite (the oxide "betafite of Hogarth 1977" version) actually occurs at Dara-i-Pioz, or if that's a part of the misnomer as well and so only the two new silicates occur there. That "betafite" (whatever that is) might occur at Dara-i-Pioz is not geochemically implausible, so I was reluctant to make any changes in that regard without more information. Although, as an aside, we should not be loading up localities with outdated mineral names, so my feeling is that if a Ca-Ti-dominant pyrochlore-supergroup oxide occurs there, we should nonetheless still discard the entry for 'mendeleevite'.
27th Oct 2019 17:39 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
The name Mendeleevite was an old name for betafite, and has subsequently been reused for a silicate
In general usage now the term Mendeleevite should refer to the silicates, and the original name should be renamed to Mendeleevite (of ???)
Right now the Mendeleevite page is a simple synonym of betafite which may be technically correct but confusing.
27th Oct 2019 18:36 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
So, what additional changes should we do here to make this better?
As you suggest, the mendeleevite page should probably be changed to Mendeleevite (of ???). I also propose the lone locality at Dara-i-Pioz of this antiquated name should also be removed, since I'm 99% sure that entry was intended to refer not to a synonym of the oxide, but rather to a "synonym" of the two silicates (which themselves are really distinct species and not synonyms of each other).
27th Oct 2019 20:16 UTCDon Saathoff Expert
27th Oct 2019 20:45 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
Curiously searching for this name now gives no result, even though I edited it! There does not appear to be a series or group name defined for the new silicates; do we need one?
The Dara-i-Pioz occurrence could be marked as questionable with a note.
27th Oct 2019 21:15 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
27th Oct 2019 21:22 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
Palache, Charles, Harry Berman & Clifford Frondel (1944), The System of Mineralogy of James Dwight Dana and Edward Salisbury Dana Yale University 1837-1892, Volume I: Elements, Sulfides, Sulfosalts, Oxides. John Wiley and Sons, Inc., New York. 7th edition, revised and enlarged: 803-805.
The Hogarth reference (betafite of Hogarth) is too recent for Dana 7. See the above reference for its total content. We probably need "Betafite of Lacroix"!
27th Oct 2019 21:35 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
5 Vernadsky, Ac. Sc. St. Pétersbourg, Bull., 8 [2], p. 1368, (1914)
27th Oct 2019 22:29 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
Is there an interest in having the full PDF uploaded to the mindat files? If so, how do I do that?
28th Oct 2019 00:19 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager
Mendeleyevite is local variety of enriched by U pyrochlore from western part of Baikal lake area. This variety wasn't chemically analyzed in times, when it was named.
So Mendeleyevite unable to be found in Dara-i-Pioz, simply because Dara-i-Pioz don't located in Prebaikalie nor Transbaikalie. "Betafites" of Dara-i-Pioz hasn't any similarity with Mendeleyevites of Prebaikalie - the first grows in peralkaline pegmatites, are crystaline, with completely settled A group close to 2 apfu, while the later grows in usual granite pegmatites (similar to ones of Southern Norway), are metamict and cation deficient.
28th Oct 2019 00:36 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
So the one locality given on the oxide "mendeleyevite" (of Vernadsky, I suppose) page (which is Dara-i-Pioz), can be removed, and the oxide mineral can have its "old name for _____" page with some historical information but with no specific locality. That's probably the best way to treat it, anyway.
EDIT: OK, I deleted the oxide "mendeleyevite" from Dara-i-Pioz; the two silicates of course are still there. There's also an entry for betafite (of Hogarth) for the Dara-i-Pioz locality, but I left that one alone.
28th Oct 2019 00:53 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager
Couple years ago I received for revision the article of guys from Tomsk State University on Prebaikalian Mendeleevites. The article was weak, as I remember. I don't know, was it published somewhere. But I can to ask. In the article were given some modern analyses belonging to different members of pyrochlore supergroup. Also, as I remember, there was given something similar to historical information. I don't understand about what you write, because don't see any localities at Mendeleevite page https://www.mindat.org/min-30199.html
28th Oct 2019 01:14 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
27th Oct 2019 22:38 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
We should really go through all the entries with Dana 1944 as a sole reference and try to add the original references also.
We do have potassicmendeleevite-(Ce) as an approved name but not yet approved mineral (whatever that means), with a similar formula so a group name may be appropriate?
28th Oct 2019 07:21 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
28th Oct 2019 12:42 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
28th Oct 2019 16:37 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
Chester S. Lemanski, Jr. Manager ✉️
Note that Lacroix's name is dated to 1912, earlier than the 1914 issue. Traditional betafite should be: Betafite (of Lacroix)We are using the Hogarth 1977 definition of betafite for traditional 'betafite' before the great Pyrochlore reorganization.
OK! I have changed the page again, it's now a variety of 'Pyrochlore Supergroup' which is how we handle other discredited names that were once part of the group.
Also, on an only slightly related matter, Pavel - do you know if the pyrochlores from Vishnevogorsk are plain pyrochlore or something else?
OK! I have changed the page again, it's now a variety of 'Pyrochlore Supergroup' which is how we handle other discredited names that were once part of the group.
Also, on an only slightly related matter, Pavel - do you know if the pyrochlores from Vishnevogorsk are plain pyrochlore or something else?
28th Oct 2019 16:42 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
28th Oct 2019 21:35 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager
They are plain Pyrochlore (Pyrochlore Pyrochlorovich Pyrochlorov) exactly according to the Hogarth's nomenclature.
Burke forced all of us to jump into the pit, which Hogarth easily and elegantly bypassed. To share pyrochlores on natro- and calcio- is to go against nature. Because the ideal, best of all balanced pyrochlore has the formula NaCaNb2O6F, where Na=Ca. Fluornatropyrochlore and Fluorcalciopyrochlore are two idiotisms, because of these two "minerals" even haven't their Hawthornian end member formulas. From my point of view two points of the same crystal with formulas (Na1.01Ca0.98)1.99Nb2(O5.98OH0.02)6F and (Ca1.02Na0.88)1.90Nb2(O5.92OH0.08)6(F0.88OH0.12) aren't two different minerals, but is the single mineral - still the same simple/plain Pyrochlore.
This situation we may to observe almost in any Pyrochlore crystal from Vishnevye Mts (with addition of Hydroxylnatropyrochlore and Hydroxylcalciopyrochlore). The situation is similar to quiet idiocy.
This grief, as Griboyedov wrote, comes from excess of mind and separation from nature and its laws for the sake of bureaucracy.
28th Oct 2019 23:28 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
28th Oct 2019 22:31 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
Formulae for pyrochlore supergroup minerals eg. fluornatrocoulsellite suggest some ordering of Na/Ca but Im not sure if this is proven or general in other pyrochlore-structured minerals?
The current description for mendeleevite is much better but I made some small changes to note your description and analysis of your mendeleevite as Uranpyrochlore (which no longer exists either!).
I also amended the description of Betafite (of Hogarth) but think we probably do need a Betafite (of Lacroix) as the former was defined as a U-Ti mineral and the latter a U-Nb-dominant mineral, AFAIK?
28th Oct 2019 23:07 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager
Dear Ralph,you should clearly understand, that chemical data of Lacroix were simple erroneous(similar to original analyses of Lorenzenite, where Ti was confused with Zr, or Molengraafite, where Sr was erroneously determined as Ca).Look
EDS spectra of Betafite from Ambatofotsy.
Ambatofotsy pegmatite, Mahavelona, Soavinandriana District, Itasy, Madagascar
Ambatofotsy pegmatite, Mahavelona, Soavinandriana District, Itasy, Madagascar
So I am think, we don't need in Betafite (of Lacroix) to avoid of more misunderstandings.
Hogarth knew much more about Betafite composition than Lacroix sometimes did.
29th Oct 2019 11:42 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
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