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Fakes & FraudsHuge Washington Nugget

7th Jun 2011 02:58 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Looks like this large gold nugget may be an import to California, and was actually found in Australia instead in 1987. This story hits close to home, as the location of where this nugget was supposedly found is but a few miles from my house, if that. I know the property, and the property owner and from the very beginning felt a deep suspicion as to the validity of the story. I noted in the pictures that the nugget had ancient channel ( oxidized blue lead) gravel clinging in the wrinkles and cravasses, which did lend an aura of authenticity, however I also knew there was a plentiful amount of this material (pieces) just lying around which could be mashed up, mixed with a binder and applied to the nugget. I contacted the auctioneer (friend) and was nicely rebuffed and lightly scolded for my suspicions. I pointed out that this property owner had been trying to sell this land for ages, had been a gold collector for years and may have hit upon a world class scheme to sell his nugget for a $ bundle and his property for an inflated price ( $1.5 million). Needles to say, our conversation became rather strained and I fear I may have lost a long time friend.


Check out news10.net for the Australian/Callifornia nugget dispute


The story is still breaking. The Australian Miners are determined to prove they actually found this nugget in "87, so time will tell and hopefully truth will out. Lyla

7th Jun 2011 06:08 UTCLinda Smith

Lyla,

Thank you posting the link. You were right on!!!

7th Jun 2011 19:09 UTCLyla J. Tracy

For those of you wishing to read more about the huge Washington Nugget, I have posted two more web sites. The first is greenbaypressgazette.com carrying a recent report from Fred Holabird of Holabird-Kagin Americana. The second web site is lostscotchmanmine.com, a site posted by the land owner shortly after the "discovery" of the nugget. Lyla

8th Jun 2011 20:49 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Here is another article on the Washington nugget. Seems like the larger newspapers are now starting to pickup the story. Here on the home front most of the reporters have left town and there is a feeling of vendication by many of the locals who had strongly doubted the story from the beginning. Check out sacbee.com Lyla

15th Jun 2011 12:09 UTCJannine Bennett

As someone very close to the finder of this nugget in Australia, I appreciate the comments you have made here Lyla. Wonder when this man will show his head. We have wondered if buyer and seller were one and the same

15th Jun 2011 18:16 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Hi Jannine,


I think you guessed right. I have felt all along that the buyer/seller were very close, maybe even the same person. There was supposed to be three active bidders, however who really knows with phone bids? I also suspect that the nugget was just used as a lure to promote the owner's property.



If there is a buyer, why hasn't he/she come forward?


Lyla

16th Jun 2011 00:08 UTCJannine Bennett

Hi Lyla


It will be interesting to see who turns out to be honest in this whole affair - I think there are some surprises coming there. The buyer was certainly kept very secret at the time and interesting he/she hasn't come forward. From the Australia end, we are watching forums etc. and a contact has been speaking to a range of people in America. We are set up for any testing or producing of evidence that is required. I would also like to know what happened to the nugget from 1987 to now as we thought it was in the Gold Nugget Casino in Los Vegas. If only the nugget could talk!! Speaking of which, it certainly was/is a great piece. You might be interested some time in the others that came from the same patch as we can tell you know your gold.


Jannine

16th Jun 2011 00:57 UTCKen Doxsee

Looking at the "Lost Scotchman" site that Lyla referenced, it is interesting to read, "130 ounces of gold nuggets, the largest weighing 9 pounds (the “Whopper”), were found during a brief exploratory assay of private land at the bottom of a canyon." So, nine pounds at 16 ounces per pound ... 144 ounces just for the "Whopper." I guess the other "nuggets" allegedly found weighed negative 14 ounces? 8-) --Ken

16th Jun 2011 01:07 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Ken, there's 12 troy ounces in a pound. There's 31 grams of Au in a troy ounce bot 28 grams.

16th Jun 2011 01:29 UTCKen Doxsee

Guess I'd better stick to IUPAC units! Thanks Rob.

16th Jun 2011 04:17 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Hi Jannine,


Yes, it is a great piece. I really admire Australian gold and have handled my share of it, but, I am not buying much gold anymore. I retired from my shop some time ago and and more recently retired as MSHA safety officer for a local gold mine. However, it wasn't my knowledge of gold, but of human nature that caused me to be suspicious of this "nugget" deal.


I would love to see this whole thing cracked wide open and the light of truth shown on all the guilty parties, but I have another suspicion that we may have heard the last word from the (U.S.) people involved. I believe that the Auction House would like this story to just fade away, and I bet Jim Grill would too. As I recall, Fred Holabird of the Holabird-Kagin Americana (Auction House) mentioned in one article about seeking the help of two gold experts to help him sort out this situation. What's with that? You don't need experts to recognize the same nugget in two different pictures. I believe that is just damage control, and quite frankly, he had to come up with something that sounded scientific. And Fred, if you are reading this, you owe me an apology! Lyla

16th Jun 2011 22:15 UTCJannine Bennett

Hi Lyla


I like your comments regarding human nature. Anyone can see the nugget in US is the same as the one found here so there should be no need for testing. It was scheduled to happen our end but was cancelled. Watching body language in the footage we have seen has been telling also. I would be happy to hear from you via my email address so will give it to you:


janninebennett@hotmail.com

17th Jun 2011 18:00 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Hi Jannine,


I just learned this morning that Mr. Grill was seen at our postoffice yesterday. Since he has publically surfaced, at least here, this begs the question of, "what next" regarding the big nugget. I sincerely doubt Mr Grill has spoken to the press since the revelation of the scam and believe he will avoid doing so at all costs. Fred Holabird did say that Mr. Grill was sticking to his story during a phone conversation the two had after the Australian picture and story surfaced.


I sincerely hope this nugget scam doesn't all just "fade away", but without a buyer to step forward and claim misrepresentation of the nugget, I doubt there is anything legally that can be done.


I really hope you folks can keep this story "fired up" from your end, because I think it will all just fade away over here. Lyla

19th Jun 2011 09:02 UTCJannine Bennett

Hi Lyla


I think you might be right. The main hound in America is the reporter Warren George from 10, to quote his words "I just love this story". Cant imagine he will let the story slide. We will see what we can do from this end and we are still working on uncovering the scam. Guess Gill had to show his face eventually, wonder how the locals treated him, what words were spoken!!


Jannine

20th Jun 2011 08:08 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Greetings,


I heard from George Warren, the News 10 reporter today and he basically feels that he has come to the end of the story on the Washington nugget. Without a buyer coming forward to claim mis-representation of the nugget, there is no crime. However he pointed out that charges could still be brought against Mr. Grill if someone relied on the discovery of the nugget to invest in his Lostscotchman Mine. I am wondering now if Fred Holabird ever got paid the 60 k in auction fees? If the nugget stayed with Mr. Grill and no money changed hands, where would that leave Fred? Wow, if true, talk about adding injury to insult.


Many folks around here are rather tired of the whole Great Washington Nugget Hoax anyway and are quite eager to get back to the serious business of drinking beer, smoking pot and watching the tourist drive by. There is a lot more than just gold in these mountains and that is no hoax. Lyla

24th Jun 2011 11:13 UTCGalah

I think you will find that a scam can be reported without an official complaint.

"If you have observed a scam or been the victim of a scam, spam or fraud and want to report it for enforcement....."


http://www.consumerfraudreporting.org/reporting.php


It just needs someone to report it ;)



Galah.

25th Jun 2011 16:59 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Galah,


Thank you, that is a very interesting site. Though I am not an "injured" party, I will send the information I have to the appropriate agency. Lyla

26th Jun 2011 01:34 UTCGalah

After reading the below definitions of a scam and fraud, I'm pleased you are passing the information on to the right authorities Lyla.


I think much of the below applies to Mr Grill and all associates.

"Definitions of Scam on the Web:


* A confidence trick, confidence game, or con for short (also known as a scam) is an attempt to intentionally mislead a person or persons (known as the mark) usually with the goal of financial or other gain. The confidence trickster, con man, scam artist or con artist often works with an accomplice called the shill, who tries to encourage the mark by pretending to believe the trickster. ...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scam"



* A ploy by a shyster to raise money.

www.nbmg.unr.edu/comstockscience/vocab1.shtml



* a fraudulent business scheme



* victimize: deprive of by deceit; "He swindled me out of my inheritance"; "She defrauded the customers who trusted her"; "the cashier gypped me when he gave me too little change"

wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn



scam (skm) Slang n.


A fraudulent business scheme; a swindle. By "fraudulent", we include misleading, misdirected or exaggerated claims in advertising.




fraud (frôd) n.


There are 4 definitions of fraud that apply to the situations we describe:


1. A deception practiced in order to secure unfair or unlawful gain.

2. any act, expression, omission, or concealment that deceives another to his or her disadvantage; specifically, it is:

* a misrepresentation, omission or concealment of some fact material to a transaction; and

* it is made with knowledge (or the reasonable expectation that the perpetrator should know) that it is false or is made in reckless disregard of its truth or falsity and

* with the intent to deceive another and

* that is reasonably relied on by the other who is injured thereby

3. A piece of trickery; a trick.

4. Lastly; describing the person who commits the act:

1. One that defrauds; a cheat.

2. One who assumes a false pose; an impostor.

26th Jun 2011 17:56 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Galah,


Your post has greatly increased my knowledge and vocabulary. Thank you for all the definitions. Lyla

28th Jun 2011 11:11 UTCGalah

I see lostscotchmanmine.com is no longer, now that's something positive.


At least for the moment it stops the gullible from being stung.


(tu)

28th Jun 2011 13:51 UTCdigger

Hi Lylah,

I can't understand all the crap about having to take samples from OZ to prove where the nugget originated. A simple test sample of the cemented gravels from the nugget compared with the gravels from the Blue Lead would leave no doubt as to the nuggets origin. this is a simple non invasive test method that Holabird should have conducted when authenticating the nugget in the first place. If I had bought anything from Holabird auctions in the past I would be taking it to a reputable dealer for a second opinion.

28th Jun 2011 15:28 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Greetings,


Thanks for the "heads up" Galah...maybe with that site gone, no one will invest in the incredibly valuable lost scotchman mine.



I agree with you Digger. When I asked Fred if he had tested the nugget, he grew a bit impatient with me, not welcoming any questions.


I believe Fred was really positive of the origin of the nugget, due in large part to the skilled performance of the so called "finder". Fred is a


history buff and I think got caught up in the historical scenario of this being the last of the big California Gold Nuggets.


I still think he is an honorable guy and runs an honorable business.


Lyla

8th Jul 2011 03:44 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Greetings,


For those interested in an update on the Great Washington Nugget Hoax, please check out the Grass Valley Union, 7/7/11.


Lyla

8th Jul 2011 14:53 UTC

Duped: Big Calif. gold nugget actually Aussie

NEVADA CITY, Calif. (AP) -- A 6.2-pound hunk of gold was auctioned for nearly half a million dollars in March after a man claimed he found it on his Sierra Nevada property, but it turns out it was actually dug up decades earlier in Australia.


After Jim Sanders' "find" on his property near Nevada City in California's Gold Country made news last year, Australian prospector Murray Cox compared pictures of Sanders' "Washington Nugget" with "The Orange Roughie" he unearthed near Melbourne in 1987, the San Francisco Chronicle reported.


They were an exact match, except the Washington Nugget sold for $460,000 in March and Cox originally sold it for $50,000.


Cox contacted Don Kagin, a coin dealer, and mining geologist Fred Holabird, who together auctioned the nugget for Sanders. The two investigated Cox's claims and determined he was right.


"The parties have mutually concluded that the nugget was from Australia," Holabird said Tuesday in a statement.


As for how Sanders got his hands on the Aussie gold chunk? The dealers said confidentiality agreements barred them from elaborating.


Cox told the Chronicle that he sold the Orange Rougie in 1989 and is not sure how it wound up with Sanders.


The person who bought the gold in March has been reimbursed, and the nugget sold for a smaller price to another bidder.


Despite duping people as to the nugget's origin, Kagin said everyone involved has agreed that fraud charges against Sanders are unnecessary.


"The whole matter has been concluded to everyone's satisfaction," he said.


The unusual gold chunk fetched $460,000 at auction because it was believed to be the largest California nugget left in existence.


While details of the 98.6-ounce nugget's new sale price were not available, gold closed at $1,529.20 an ounce Wednesday.


Article from AP NEWS;

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_MONSTER_GOLD_NUGGET?SITE=WRGBTV&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT


I think Mr Holabird is dreaming if he thinks this story will wash-over with the fraud squad.


Everyone involved may be easily pleased Mr Holabird, and in fact "everyone" involved may wish this whole story would just go away, but I got a feeling that "someone" will still need to answer a couple of serious questions.


* Who was behind the scam?

* Who started up the investment web site lostscotchmanmine.com

* Who did the "assay" on the land that produced those unbelievable figures that you regularly spruced Mr Holabird?

* How could a "geologist" make such a mistake?

* Who really are these "mysterious" buyers?


Many questions that I'm sure the authorities will be wanting answered regarding this obvious scam, as it was undoubtedly hatched to gain financial advantage of the gullible by falsely claiming something that wasn't.



;)

8th Jul 2011 16:18 UTCMichel Ambroise

It was nice to read all the story.


Hard to believe but something bigger ever found in California will worth 460 000 dollars, and the same from an other place 10 times less!!!!!!

8th Jul 2011 19:19 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Galah, I agree with you on your assessment of the fraud situation. The Holabird/Kagin Auction house took a serious hit to their reputation and possibly their wallet and why they wouldn't wish to pursue some legal action against the perpetrator is beyond me. In my opinion, another layer of suspicion has been added by glossing over this lastest transaction.


To clarify a few things. The name of the man who last "found" the big nugget is James Sanders Grill...He uses his middle name as his last name in certain circumstances.


Reg Wilson actually found the nugget the first time around. Murray Cox was his partner and helped him dig it up. This has been confused in the press.


The nugget was offered to a gold buyer in Auburn California prior to being taken to Holabird/Kagin. The gold buyer was familiar with Autralian gold and disputed the claim that it was found in California.


The authorities are aware of this situation and hopefully will put some effort into an investigation..


Lyla

9th Jul 2011 02:30 UTCdigger

Lylah


You are correct surrounding the facts about the discovery of the nugget, although there is quite a bit more to that story.

The other facts reported in the press that need correcting are Murray Cox did not tell the press he sold it to Rattlesnake John, he said "it" was sold. The other fact is he did not contact Holabird or Kagin, he contacted George Warren. When Warren told Holabird the story he replied that Wilson and Cox were using a photo that he had taken for other purposes to create a scam. I don't believe Holabird is as honorable as you suggest otherwise why all the confidentiality regarding the return of the nugget and it's resale. If the authorities investigate this matter as they should I think there is more to come.


Digger

9th Jul 2011 07:12 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Yes, Digger, I believe there is more to come and I hope we find out.....however it goes.


Lyla

16th Jul 2011 03:36 UTCGalah

I do find it remarkable that even though the weight value of this nugget is somewhere around $135,000, Mr Fred Holabird predicted it would fetch $400,000 +.


A rare nugget like this is always going to attract a price in excess of it's gold-content-only value, but over treble the price? And a record price that was predicted with a reasonable degree of accuracy by Mr Holabird several months before the actual auction?


My synopsis is either Mr Holabird is remarkably good at his trade, or he had some prior inkling as to who and how much they were prepared to pay for this lump of Au. But then again, if someone is so good at what they do, how could they so innocently fall for this scam as Mr Holabird has claimed, and yet be so self-righteous about it's authenticity???


I'm not convinced James Sanders Grill has acted alone in this.


http://www.aolnews.com/2011/01/05/100-ounce-gold-nugget-found-in-california-could-fetch-400-000/?a_dgi=aolshare_facebook


8-)

16th Jul 2011 05:50 UTCRay Hill Expert

I suspect that the lost scotchman had too much single malt before naming a supposedly finding this mine

24th Aug 2011 10:46 UTCGalah

Here's a recent article to suggest Holabird is getting the nugget "DNA" tested in Western Australia.


I'm quite sceptical :)


http://www.sacbee.com/2011/08/19/3847848/disputed-gold-nugget-to-be-tested.html#mi_rss=Bee%20State%20News

31st Aug 2011 07:16 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Thanks for the sacbee link Galah. In my opinion, that "scientific" gold test is just a transparent "face saving" effort by Fred Holabird who has already admitted that the nugget was from Australia. And his remark about the test being for the "good of science" is ridiculous.


Rumor has it that all parties to the Washington Nugget deal were required to sign a non disclosure document...now isn't that convenient.


Let's hope the fraud squad isn't too polite.

1st Sep 2011 01:30 UTCGalah

Hi Lyla.


A non disclosure doc might be convenient to keep us commoners out of the picture, but I doubt it would stop with the fraud squad from their investigations.


To my knowledge the original finder has not been contacted by the Western Australian University for a matching sample from the same patch that the Orange Roughie was found, even though both the University and Mr Holabird are aware of his willingness to provide these samples.


In fact I believe the university department supposedly conducting the tests have not replied to local inquiries requesting confirmation of these tests.


Early days but it's looking more like a smoke-screen by Mr Holabird that anything else.


More on this as information unfolds.......

2nd Sep 2011 17:39 UTCLyla J. Tracy

Galah, I couldn't agree more. Actually I think it is a very "smelly" smoke screen.

26th Mar 2019 15:56 UTCJoeseph Albert Black

The story smells even more like fish today with more facts leaking out.

Fred Holabird, And the lot are all connected with other scams. 2018 Grabowski estate, California, Fairchild estate, California, Dudly estate California, 2019 Gold Leif Placer scam Alaska, 2012 Casino gold Nevada, ect., ect . His latest scam is authenticating gold coin and bars for the Smithsonian! He was informed right away that the California nugget was the Orange Rouphy nugget from Australia and yet he defended its authenticity. Now the connections between the land owner, and the illusive (rattlesnake) rock show vender in Arizona! The whole lot of them our tied together, don't take my word for it Simply search court records and you will see for yourself they all have history together! They even fight one another over the spoils like the Thieves they are! Personally I'm now woundering about the million dollar Custer Riffle, or the one of a kind Colt that the lot of them discovered and sold!

26th Mar 2019 19:03 UTCJoeseph Albert Black

Hollabird western American, holabird auctions, holabird consulting, hollabird western, Holabird publishing, gold leaf placer mining company, holabird mining,

Holabird kagin auctions, holabird kagin Americana, kagin coins, ect , ect, all limited liability companies owned by the same organized crime team! Dozens of LLC shells to hide behind all the while - bankrupting the unsuspecting public. The half million dollar nugget scam was only one of their small scams, look into Gold Leaf Placer in Alaska if you really want to see what these guys owe the IRS! They control nearly all of Alaska's private mining sites - how's that for a motive?

2nd Apr 2019 00:47 UTCJoeseph Albert Black

You are correct the Nugget was in the Nevada casino collection, but they got swindled out of it by guess who? No other than the same Fred Holabird! No one has to take my word for it just google the auction and you will see the nugget in the collection photos and read all about how Fred Holabird, has authenticated and appraised the very nugget he allegedly failed to recognize when he auctioned it off in California, guess whom was also auctioning the land it was allegedly found on?

2nd Apr 2019 01:03 UTCJoeseph Albert Black

A carfull observer will also note that every time Fred buys an Alaska claim, the production totals go up with the price, until the new owner starts mining it! Then consider how much gold he cheats seniors out of through his auctions and you have seen the light, it is bright and if one had to give it a name it would be something like greedy green, with a shade of gold laundering!
 
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