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Techniques for CollectorsStichtite - Treating to Prevent Crumbling, or Stabilizing

30th Apr 2010 10:23 UTCRay Wilson

Does anyone know how to stabilize stichtite in serpentine?

I have some pieces from Dundas Tasmania, that when slabbed tend to become very crumbly. I suspect it is nore like a cleavage between the stichtite and the serpentine, not a delaminating like typical serpentine.

Alternatively if anyone knows how turquoise is stabilized I would appreciate it as I suspect this same method may work with the material I have.

Thanks,

Ray.

30th Apr 2010 11:46 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Turquoise is relatively easy to stabilise due to its porosity, but stichtite and serpentine have a low porosity, so would not work so well. Stichtite can be quite foliated/micaceous and contain inclusions of magnesiochromite and magnetite, so cutting and polishing usually cause some disintegration. I think that some workers with this stone mix the powdered stichtite with glue to fill the holes and re-work.

30th Apr 2010 16:52 UTCDonald Slater

You might try Opticon. It can be tricky. You put the resin part on, set in the oven on low temperature for a period of time and then spread the hardener on. Heating it and the stone allows the resin to flow into any cracks and pores. There are instructions on the bottles. I haven't used it in a awhile and sometimes I has a hard time getting it to harden but when it works it takes a good polish and does a good job of filling fractures.

5th May 2010 11:08 UTCRay Wilson

Ralph,

Thanks for the advice.

The piece that I slabbed was just very soft and crumbly - a bit like the texture of a biscuit.

I found a reference somewhere on Mindat to stabilize stones by mixing epoxy together with acetone and then leaving the stones in that mix for several days.

I thought I may as well try the process and it seems to have worked a treat. I used 2 part Loctite (14ml) and about 500ml of Acetone in a seled container. The mixture however turned into a white gel after about 3 days. The stone slabs though have definitely hardened up and I have finished cabbing 5 stones quite successfully. On one stone a corner chunk chipped out just as I was finishing polishing but this was far better than I was originally experiencing. Although I accept serpentine is not porous, I suspect that the epoxy has infilled the fracture lines and the foliation lines within the serpentine helping make the stone less crumbly. On the down side, under my 3 power head loupe some of the slabs now have pinpoint white spots which I hink is the epoxy turned white gell. I also noticed the small micaceous inclusions in the purple stichtite, which makes getting a good polish near on impossible as the mica tends to flake off and leave small divots, again which are noticeable with a 3 power loupe. I take it that it is these divots that you referred to as filling with powdered stichtite in glue. It would seem a tedious process to me and doubtful as to whether it is worth the time and effort. In my opinion the small imperfections give the stone its character.

I'm going to try some othe other mix proportions of the epoxy and possibly some othe epoxies, but I think Opticon is probably too expensive for serpentine. I'll keep that for my boulder opals.

Ray.

16th Jun 2010 01:23 UTCtsmith

Try soaking it for several days in liquid glass (sodium silicate) and then let it dry in the sun before working the stone.

16th Jun 2010 04:34 UTCJamey Swisher

Opticon works great. For less porous materials it works best in a vacuum. This can be done with a canning jar. ;). Otherwise use the same heating methods as normal.

16th Jun 2010 09:28 UTCPeter Trebilcock Expert

As the previous suggestion,soak in sodium silicate for an hour,place in a large plastic bag and then introduce some carbon dioxide which will rapidly harden it.We used it in our small foundry for years to harden sand cores,moulds etc.

29th Jul 2010 08:55 UTCmike beck

You mean atlantisite just kidding I live in sedona and I need a sense of humor about such things.to the point however, I am a production cutter and I cut about 75 cabs and 40 matched earring pairs of this material last week.I agree that the instability of this material is centered around the stichtite.I. personally have great luck with opticon I heat the material in a electric oven at the lowest setting about 170 F. Opticon has a tendency to take on a blueish tint if it comes in contact with water this is part of the reason for heating I.e. evaporating the water. The other reason is the warm rocks will cause the opticon to thin and therefore penetrate better. With the instructions that come with the opticon they describe soaking your material in the resen I do not advise this no matter how much hardener you rub into the stone some warm day your stones will start to sweat unhardened sticky resen. The simple solution is to always mix your resin and hardener at a 10 to 1 ratio then apply. I personally return my coated stones to the oven they will dry in less than an hour the sun is fine too. This stuff is a mess gloves, work clothes, covered work area,ventilation if your sensitive. As far as the schitite it needed to be opticoned every step of the way but it came out great. I'm working on some more tomarrow I will post some photos. Thanks for the forum and I hope this could be helpful to someone. P.s. I would be interested in hearing about "a vacuum in a Mason jar"

3rd Aug 2010 03:50 UTCJamey Swisher

It is an old Aussie opal cutter's method of stabilizing opals but seems to work with almost ANY material so far!

I can NOT take credit for it, and if I could remember the Blokes name who explained it to me I would gladly post it up for credit, but sadly, I can not. All I remember is it was an old Aussie opal cutter who wrote it up and sent it to me to teach me the method. Here it is word for word:

Fill the jar with Opticon (resin) to just cover all the stones by 1/8-1/4 inch over the stones. Place the jar on a coffee machine burner, like an old Mr. Coffee machine. Turn on the machine like you would if you were making coffee and cover the pint jar with a doubled piece of foil (do not put lid and ring on). Cook the opals for 6-8 hrs. After you are done cooking the opals remove the opals from the heat, take off the foil and pour as much of the Opticon out of the jar as you can, use oven mitts...that jar is mighty hot!!!! After you have gotten the hot resin out, put back on heat for a minute or so. Once you've done this procedure a few times you can empty out the resin pretty fast and don't have to return it to the heat. The whole point is to keep the stones hot.

After you empty the resin, place the lid and ring on the jar and tighten. Set aside for 8 hrs. When it cools the lid will pop and create it's own vacuum. I usually start in the morning and then let the jar cool over night. After it has set for 8hrs or more, open up the jar and remove the opals one by one, cleaning off the resin with a paper towel. Use gloves (surgical or latex) when doing this. You do not want to get this stuff on your hands!!!! Get another pint jar out for the hardener, ring and lid also. Place opals on a piece of foil and take hardener bottle and apply it to the stones (don't use a whole lot but the stones have to be wet). Get a pair of chopsticks or shishka-bob sticks and roll the stones so every part is wet with hardener. Take the jar and run it under as hot of water as your sink puts out, (pre heating it. Don't get the inside wet). When the jar is fairly warm, place the opals (on the foil) down in the jar. I normally shape the foil first to fit down into the jar. Place the jar on the coffee machine burner and cook 2hrs, covering it with foil. About 1 hr into the cooking, get your chopsticks and roll the stones in the hardener at least once. It is very important that you do not breath the fumes; hold your breath when you do this.

After about 2 hrs, remove from heat and place lid and tighten ring on jar. Set aside for 6-8 hrs, the lid should pop or suck down on this also. After it has set 6-8 hrs, open up jar and remove stones (with gloves on) and wipe off any remaining hardener. Let stones sit for a day or until they don't feel sticky.

Hope this helps you out.

And one more different method:

Epoxy type: 330. Two parts, one hardener, one resin. Water Clear Epoxy.

Acetone: One Pint.

Mix both tubes into Acetone, real well. Allow stones to steep for 7-10 days. Swirl mix around about every other day . Remove and let set for a minimum of one week prior to cutting. Keep jar sealed and it will last quite a long time. DO NOT keep it; near the water heater or other sources of heat that could emit either sparks or open flames (acetone is very combustable) nor where the children can get it!! Remove stones from the mixture. Place extracted stones on a surface that no one's going to mind if it gets a little messed up. Let dry another week and done!

3rd Aug 2010 13:12 UTCRock Currier Expert

Good stuff!

7th Aug 2010 22:38 UTCJamey Swisher

I thought so as well Rock, and over the years the methods have worked on every material I have tried them on. I am even currently running some research and tests on faceted gemstones using a method similar to the Opticon one. The method I am researching and testing is one of those being used by many Thailand sellers to clarity enhance their gemstones, especially those found on Fleabay. So far the method has worked some small miracles on hessonite garnets, sapphires of varying colors, rubies, amethyst and citrine, peridot, iolite, tourmaline, aquamarine, heliodor, and a few others. Next round will be spinel and a few more. Seems like quite a marketable treatment if they would just disclose it instead of hiding it, lol.

8th Aug 2010 03:15 UTCRock Currier Expert

Someone should write this up as a formal article on Mindat. I am sure many people would find it useful. There are a lot of people out there looking for hard and accurate information about how to do various kinds of things. I am continually amazed at the number of hits my article on clean quartz has had 20K and going. I would think an article on the use of opticon might find a similar audience.

10th Aug 2010 02:58 UTCJamey Swisher

How and where do I write it up at?

10th Aug 2010 03:33 UTCJim Bean 🌟

First, log in to Mindat

My Home Page (at top left)

My Articles

Create New Article

and thanks for contributing!

10th Aug 2010 12:39 UTCRock Currier Expert

If you encounter any problem with starting the article by the steps Jim indicated above get back to us. You can work on the article and then when you are ready you can "publish" it.

11th Aug 2010 22:10 UTCJamey Swisher

Cool, thankies. :)

13th Aug 2010 13:34 UTCRay Wilson

Jamey Swisher Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> >

> Epoxy type: 330. Two parts, one hardener, one

> resin. Water Clear Epoxy.

> Acetone: One Pint.

>

> Mix both tubes into Acetone, real well. Allow

> stones to steep for 7-10 days. Swirl mix around

> about every other day . Remove and let set for a

> minimum of one week prior to cutting. Keep jar

> sealed and it will last quite a long time. DO NOT

> keep it; near the water heater or other sources of

> heat that could emit either sparks or open flames

> (acetone is very combustable) nor where the

> children can get it!! Remove stones from the

> mixture. Place extracted stones on a surface that

> no one's going to mind if it gets a little messed

> up. Let dry another week and done!

Jamey I have tried the latter method but wasn't too happy with it. I used Loctite 2 part epoxy which I believe will be very similar to 330. After about 3 days the mixture turns into a white jelly type gunk. I left the slabs in this for 7 days. While it definitely helped in holding the slabs together and let me cut cabs successfully, I ended up with small white spots in the stone which I think is the epoxy/acetone mixture.

I'm now trying Sodium Silicate as recommended by an earlier poster. Just for reference Sodium Silicate is sold here to potters to include with their clay when making ceramic pots. They call it "slip" I think.

14th Aug 2010 04:38 UTCJamey Swisher

Ray Wilson Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Jamey I have tried the latter method but wasn't

> too happy with it. I used Loctite 2 part epoxy

> which I believe will be very similar to 330.

> After about 3 days the mixture turns into a white

> jelly type gunk. I left the slabs in this for 7

> days. While it definitely helped in holding the

> slabs together and let me cut cabs successfully, I

> ended up with small white spots in the stone which

> I think is the epoxy/acetone mixture.

Nope, not even close. Epoxy 330 is just that, epoxy 330.

The ratios would be different for other stuff first off. The above method is for 1 pint of acetone and 1 set of Epoxy 330 which is 1/2oz of each part to make 1oz of epoxy. All of the Loctite 2 part epoxies I looked at were far more epoxy, like typically 3.5x as most were 3.4 to 3.5oz of epoxy, which means you would need 3-3.5x as much Acetone as well, meaning 3 pints acetone to one tube of that stuff if it was even to work, which it may not. But your mess was more then likely due to the mixture amounts being incorrect more then anything.

I have never tried other types. But I will do so this weekend maybe. I have some cheap 2 part epoxy from HF and I will mix it properly and see how it works. Wanted to stabilize some turquoise anyways.

20th Sep 2010 16:08 UTCMike R.

Hi Jamey,

I found your methods interesting. I am certainly going to try the epoxy 330 and Acetone, as I use both. I have never tried stabilizing stones except for just using epoxy or hot stuff and I'm now trying the opticon. I have a question that I thought you could help me with.

From my slabs, I have cut some pieces into their rough shapes, such as crosses, ovals and the like. Of course they are now all just flat pieces and all approx 1/4" to 5/16" thick (I just want to try to make myself clear on everything). I have soaked as many pieces as I can in a baking pan using one full 8 oz bottle of opticon. They have been soaking for 8 weeks now.

It seems now that if I were to heat them in the pan and drain off all the opticon, and then apply the hardener, after the hardener is cured, wouldn't all the hardener will be grinded off when I continue cutting them to their final shapes? Can I /or should I (?) shape them and finish them after I bake them, and THEN apply the hardener and then give them a final buff or polish?

Or should I apply the hardener to them after the baking, and the stones be baked again after the hardener? What's the temps I should use and the length of time on the steps?

I would greatly appreciate any input or advice on this from you (or someone with experience with opticon).

Thanks a million!!

Mike

21st Sep 2010 04:00 UTCJamey Swisher

Ok. First off you should always heat the opticon in the oven, 250F does fairly well, for a few hours. Then wipe all the excess off and then get your Part II out and coat the pieces with it, just so they are wet. Now return that back to the heat for about 20-30mins. This will allow the hardener(Pt. II) to get thinner and flow into the cracks in the rock as well and start sealing/hardening from the inside out. ;). Then finished cutting and polishing as normal. If done right you will not cut away nor lose all the Opticon as it will be throughout the material.

22nd Sep 2010 06:14 UTCMike R

Thanks Jamey! Wow, that was a fast reply and I really appreciate your help.

Another question, or 2 part question which I just gotta ask if ya don't mind, for my peace of mind (for what's left :S) please.

First part... After I heat the opticon (along with the pieces) and then take them out.....before I coat them with the hardener, do I use only hardener/100% hardener... or is there some kind of mix with the opticon? I am thinking it's only hardener, but I have actually heard different ratios of this step. I just want to be clear. (I have also heard - rather than reheat them again with a coating of hardener, have them sit for 8 weeks!.... which would be fine, but the reheating seems much more logical and way easier).

Second part... Also, when returning to the oven to reheat, will simply placing the stones on a separate baking pan or cookie sheet be a concern of them sticking or adhering to the metal?

Again, Thanks Jamey for helping me out. I really appreciate your time and advice. I'm sure this should do it for me. Usually, until recently I only cut fire agate, and the only thing I need stabilizing was my hand (or 2), and sometimes my head when I mess up and go through some nice fire!! Ya know?! I thought everything else was going to be a piece of cake, but not the case.

Thanks a million!! Mike

2nd Oct 2010 19:25 UTCMike R.

Ever cut fire agate? Hardest gem to cut and carve. Musta been that huh :?

19th Jan 2011 21:02 UTCrichard schutte

i read somewhere that the 311 epoxy(two tube) mixed with a quart of acetone will harden soft stones. but

in my quote they said to leave it at least a month or more. then let it dry for a week. this came

from the international lapidary assn. website

31st Jan 2011 04:27 UTCJamey Swisher

Yes, you should heat it again afterward so the hardener thins enough to get all the way through the stone and makes it hard throughout.

The Epoxy 330 + Acetone does not need any heating. Just 7-10 soaking days and then 7-10 drying days. Tues I pull a batch of #8 Mine turquoise and some other pieces out for their 7-10 days drying time.

Water Glass is another option, but I have not actually used this method yet, sorry.

4th Oct 2012 10:13 UTCfallenskyturquoise

Hello so from the board I have seen 3 methods thus far for treating turquoise. I need advice since I just recently purchased some great old stock all natural no treatment turquoise with great spiderwebbing and pyrite inclusions. However it was not treated and some of the host rock white flaky and brittle falls apart chalky when polished/grinded. I need to harden the porous turquoise host rock from out of my own home. Since this was an expensive chunk of turquoise which is recommended? And any recommendations to avoid mishaps in the hardening process would be appreciated or where to purchase such hardeners: epoxy / or sodium silicate /

some methods are soaking and some require heating and storing in a jar. I am a bit confused can anyone clarify for me what is the recommended method from home?

4th Oct 2012 10:20 UTCbluerockgrinder

Can someone give any recommendations as to how I can use SODIUM SILICATE from home to harden a big chunk of great turquoise? materials required and time frame and instruction process. Or is the heat and epoxy 330 method the prefered method for hardening turquoise. Please post any instructions on both methods if anyone has any information. Thanks.

17th Apr 2013 08:55 UTCSid

really interesting discussion.

what about mixing epoxy and HF???

need help regarding filling serpentine cracks.

20th Apr 2014 14:10 UTCStephan

Hello folks, I've been reading all I can about stabilizing and it seems to boil down to the Opticon route or the acetone/epoxy option. I like the vacuum principle using opticon but not the price ;o(

So my question is; Could one heat the stones and pour the acetone/epoxy mixture over them in a mason jar getting the benefit of the vacuum principle and maybe cutting down the soak for 8 day acetone protocol? Anyone tried this? I did read that acetone boils in a vacuum and my long suffering wife would not be thrilled or understanding if I torched the house.

I did run across this item in my internet wanderings
http://www.katsci.com/products/3163-desi-vac-containers.aspx

They look like they might optimize the Opticon method.

or be a less flammable tool for the acetone method.

10th Jul 2014 17:04 UTCRandall Hillquist

1 pint of acetone mixed with 2 part epoxy UV resistant Ultra clear, put the acetone into a glass jar, put all the epoxy and resin into the acetone and mix well, put your material into the jar and soak for about a week swirl the mixture every day. pull material out after a week, and let dry for another week your ready.....

20th Sep 2016 22:46 UTCRon's Gems in Silver

What size tube of epoxy is being used, 1/2 ounce, one,two, four ounce tubes?

RB

20th Sep 2016 22:55 UTCRon's Gems in Silver

Just found the answer, 1/2 ounce tubes of resin and hardener in one pint of acetone.

Thanks

RB

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