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GeneralWhy isn’t Red Beryl more popular?

9th Dec 2018 17:24 UTCVicki Tremont

If you do a simple internet search of Red Beryl, you will see repeated over and over how it is one of the most rare and expensive gemstones on Earth, yet, if you asked the general public about it, most people have never heard of it. This is a stone that is found exclusively in North America, with gem quality material found only in Utah, so why doesn’t this stone seem to get more publicity or attention? Why don’t you ever seen Red Beryl jewelry being auctioned at these high end auction houses like diamonds and rubies and emeralds do if it is such a rare and exclusive gem?

9th Dec 2018 17:33 UTCTed Hadley

Most often, popularity is a result of marketing.

So your question can be extended to, "Why isn't anyone marketing red beryl?"

My guess is it is so scarce there isn't enough money to be made from sales to account for marketing costs.

9th Dec 2018 18:06 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

Welcome to Mindat, Vicki!

Simple answer: because there's not much of it out there to begin with...

9th Dec 2018 18:23 UTCNick Gilly

As above. If it did become popular like the major gemstones mentioned by the OP, there just wouldn't be enough to satisfy demand. Mining it at that rate would probably use up all the supplies within months!

9th Dec 2018 18:30 UTCVicki Tremont

Thanks for the warm welcome!

My question really stemmed from something else. So my friend is a crystal collector and also does some gem cutting as well. He has a 7 carat Red Beryl gem that he cut himself from a specimen that was stuck in the rock. I’ve seen the gem and it is beautiful... very large and the color changes depending on the light source from a deep red to a pinkish magenta. The color is evenly saturated and there are inclusions that look like cracks inside the stone which seem to be the norm, but it is very gemmy and transparent. At first glance it actually looks like a ruby.

The only information I knew about Red Beryl was from those same Internet articles I mentioned previously. Of course I had read about how Red Beryl is super rare and valuable and how most stones are under a carat. So when he showed me a 7 carat stone my jaw dropped and asked him why he doesn’t sell it if it’s so valuable and he said because it’s not a popular stone and he would have a hard time finding a buyer and wouldn’t know what to charge for it anyway. So it just got me thinking about why such a rare stone of significant size would be so hard to sell and then just why it wasn’t popular in the first place. I’m definitely no expert on the subject, but do you think he is right in saying what he said about it?

9th Dec 2018 19:24 UTCMark Heintzelman 🌟 Expert

Frankly, I've never seen a larger sized Red Beryl without significant internal flaws. When all the available material can never allow for cut stones with good clarity to exceed a few millimeters at best, it's not exactly something to write home about. I know that stones with good color often get cut anyway, regardless of it's clarity, but it matters a great deal when conferring "great value" to any such stone.

Red Beryl is more of a novelty cut stone in my mind, as no stone of size could ever possess any significant quality. A jeweler named Ray Zajicek had worked with this material beginning in the 1980s, and presented the results of his accomplishments at the 2014 Tucson show, and his observations are as follows:

"Average faceted Red Beryl gem runs approximately 0.08 ct. A 0.50 ct sample would be large, and anything above a carat would be exceptionally rare. Like Emerald, Red beryl also has a range of hues and tones, as well as a typically uneven color distribution which makes it a real challenge to appropriately match already uncommon stones for any multi-stone piece. A carat-sized rough stone is not necessarily cuttable; yields are low, averaging between 8% and 15%. and the difficulty of mining the paucity of material available makes future production simply "cost-prohibitive". As it stands, few would spend money to promote a gem they probably would not be able to obtain in any quantity."

Beryl var. Red "gem clarity" (Violet Claims, Wah Wah Mountains, Utah)

9th Dec 2018 20:49 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

The small and of only marginal gem quality crystals of red beryl may be more of an impediment to its popularity than its scarcity. After all, Tiffany's was able to effectively market blue zoisite from just one locality into the tanzanite empire we see now on every home shopping channel. Of course, those crystals, and those gems, in size, clarity and color, were spectacularly eye-popping! Then again, maybe someone just needs to rename red beryl into something more "sexy"... the nickname "red emerald" is just confusing, and "utahite" (which is probably already used for something else anyway) conjures up all the sexiness of a teetotaling preacher... lol.

9th Dec 2018 21:09 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Where is this red beryl your friend has from?

9th Dec 2018 23:08 UTCVicki Tremont

Reiner Mielke Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Where is this red beryl your friend has from?

It’s from Utah. Is that the only place they are found?

9th Dec 2018 23:39 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

No.

They also come from Paramount Canyon and the Black Range Tin District, both in Sierra Co., New Mexico.

11th Dec 2018 16:53 UTCVicki Tremont

How much do you think a 7 carat red beryl gemstone is worth? I've seen stuff saying that it could be about $10,000 a carat, but I would think that since most gemstones are less than a carat, then the price would go up exponentially for 7 carats?

11th Dec 2018 17:49 UTCDoug Daniels

I believe the ones found in New Mexico would more properly be called "pink beryl". I've never seen one from there that has the same color as those from Utah. I vaguely recall some investigations at the N.M. Bureau of Mines (not an official one) on the chromophore for the two areas, and they were different for both areas.. I think manganese for Utah, and molybdenum for New Mexico. But my mind is old, and many things are crossed. Perhaps Pat Haynes can give some insight, as he's the one who found the New Mexico deposits.

11th Dec 2018 18:00 UTCVicki Tremont

11th Dec 2018 19:57 UTCDaryl Babcock

Russia is making red beryl in the lab now. If it is real red beryl and 7 carats it either is old stuff from the Ruby Violet claims in Utah or lab made. With you saying it is basically flawless I'd go with lab made, everything I've ever seen has had inclusions and/or flaws. In fact, like with Emerald (green beryl) flaws are a sign of natural crystal rather than lab grown.

I have close to 500 Red Beryl crystals from the Starvation Canyon claim in the Thomas Range, some gemmy but not true gems. The few I've seen from New Mexico are tiny and very flawed, worse than Thomas Range crystals.

Something else to consider is that it isn't true Red Beryl, it could be pezzottaite from Madigascar. They were trying to market that as Red Beryl for a while as well. If your friend got it from eBay it is likely either lab grown or pezzottaite.

As to why it isn't popular, there isn't enough of it to make it popular. While a tiny amount of Thomas Range Red Beryl is facetable out of my 500 I doubt I have 10 carats of quality gems and they are all tabular so none of them are of any real size for faceting. My understanding is that the Wildhorse Springs and WahWah are both basically played out (per John Holfert) so little more will come from them and they are the only sources of gem quality material of any size.

What is coming out of the Thomas Range now is good for mineral samples, especially if you get combination pieces with Bixbyite, Topaz, Hematite After Garnet or Pseudo-Brookite. Some are absolutely beautiful and amazing, but they are not facet quality gem material (with very few exceptions) and they are more valuable money-wise as a mineral sample than as a gem for mounting.

11th Dec 2018 20:24 UTCDoug Daniels

Vicki Tremont Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> The one that my friend has is from Utah, not New

> Mexico.

Vicki - I knew that. I was responding to Paul's comment (guess I should have referenced that).

11th Dec 2018 20:31 UTCClifford Trebilcock

In regards to red beryl from New Mexico. Go to go to Photos>Photo Search> Type in " Red Beryl from New Mexico "

The crystals are not too large but some decent red color.

Cliff

11th Dec 2018 22:58 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Vicki, you can't multiply 7 carats x $10,000/ct to arrive at a value because, with gems, a tiny difference in quality makes a huge difference in price per carat. A 7 carat red beryl is likely to be rather poor quality, perhaps even with patches that aren't "gemmy" at all, and then you have to knock a couple of zeros off the estimated price. Just look at ruby for example - Truly gemmy ones with great colour may fetch several thousand $$ for a carat, and poorly coloured opaque ones won't even get that much for a pound.

12th Dec 2018 03:59 UTCVicki Tremont

Daryl Babcock Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Russia is making red beryl in the lab now. If it

> is real red beryl and 7 carats it either is old

> stuff from the Ruby Violet claims in Utah or lab

> made. With you saying it is basically flawless

> I'd go with lab made, everything I've ever seen

> has had inclusions and/or flaws. In fact, like

> with Emerald (green beryl) flaws are a sign of

> natural crystal rather than lab grown.

> I have close to 500 Red Beryl crystals from the

> Starvation Canyon claim in the Thomas Range, some

> gemmy but not true gems. The few I've seen from

> New Mexico are tiny and very flawed, worse than

> Thomas Range crystals.

> Something else to consider is that it isn't true

> Red Beryl, it could be pezzottaite from

> Madigascar. They were trying to market that as

> Red Beryl for a while as well. If your friend got

> it from eBay it is likely either lab grown or

> pezzottaite.

I never said it was flawless or had no inclusions. I said that it was gemmy and an even color and saturation and it had inclusions that looked like cracks inside, but that seems to be normal as a flawless stone would be extremely rare. And he didn’t get it from eBay, he got it from a mineral show and it was indeed red beryl still stuck in the host rock.

I’ll see if I can get a picture of it.

12th Dec 2018 04:13 UTCVicki Tremont

12th Dec 2018 06:24 UTCWayne Corwin

Vicki

Photo it on a piece of white paper.

12th Dec 2018 12:21 UTCVicki Tremont

14th Dec 2018 14:51 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

An interesting paper on the Utah red beryl appeared recently:

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0022286017312796?

Fridrichová, J., Bačik, P., Ertl, A., Wildner, M., Dekan, J., Miglierini, M. (2018): Jahn-Teller distortion of Mn3+-occupied octahedra in red beryl from Utah indicated by optical spectroscopy. Journal of Molecular Structure 1152, 79-86.

Variety page updated.

14th Dec 2018 16:51 UTCVicki Tremont

Thank you for the article, but I have absolutely no idea what any of it means! Can you explain it in plain English to me... all those scientific terms are confusing haha!

By the way, what do you think of the stone? Does it seem to look like red beryl?

14th Dec 2018 18:29 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

It looks like red beryl but it could be something else too. If it fluoresces in longwave it could be ruby.

15th Dec 2018 01:12 UTCIan Nicastro

Synthetic red beryl does exist as well.

15th Dec 2018 01:13 UTCDoug Daniels

As Kevin said, looks like, but could be.... I remember back in the early 80's in West Texas, one of the faceters in the local club liked to show off his "Texas ruby". Nice stone, not too big. Even shown on TV prior to one of the shows. What was it? A piece of an old taillight lens, back when they were made of glass. Not saying your (his?) stone is a fake, but since we can't do any (non-destructive) tests, we can't say for sure. If it is a red beryl, a true rarity.

15th Dec 2018 07:42 UTCKevin Hean

What makes me sceptical is the size. My advice is to have it tested by a reputable Gemmologist or Laboratory. If it is indeed Red Beryl, have it re -cut, because at the moment it is very badly cut, the meet points are non existent on some of the facets, there seems to be windowing and the polish?? Agreed, I am looking at low res photos.

Once that is done have it Graded and Appraised. A Red Beryl of that size, colour and clarity will fetch a pretty penny.

15th Dec 2018 16:51 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

Returning to this thread after a while, posts seem to refer to a photo, but I don't see any photos. Has it been removed?

15th Dec 2018 16:55 UTCDonald B Peck Expert

One simple test (which is indicative, but not conclusive), is to place the stone between crossed polaroids and then turn the stone. Beryl is birefringent and will go extinct (dark) every 90^o. Lenses from an old pair of polaroid sunglasses will suffice. Glass and garnets are isotropic and will be dark in any position.

If the stone is dark in all positions, turn it up on edge and rotate it. If it is beryl (which I think it is not) and it was cut with the c-axis vertical, the stone would remain dark through an entire rotation, up on edge tests whether that was the case. It is stays dark in a rotation on edge after having remained dark in a rotation about the axis of the stone, it is glass or perhaps garnet.

15th Dec 2018 18:47 UTCDoug Daniels

Yes, interesting. The photos of the cut stone have disappeared. Why?

15th Dec 2018 23:25 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Removed by the original poster.

16th Dec 2018 06:24 UTCGregg Little 🌟

Vicki Tremont's post on December 12th mentions the sample that she started the thread with but as yet no photo was posted, or was that removed as well? It appears that this thread has no more relevance particularly if the original person posting is removing their pictures and text.

16th Dec 2018 19:25 UTCDaryl Babcock

A shame she ended the thread. A picture of the uncut beryl in rhyolite would resolve the question of "is it real" immediately. My best "beryl" came from an ant hill. It was bright red and gemmy, more so than anything I pulled out of the rock myself and it was dark red and flawless. Unfortunately, like Doug's story above, a lighter and pliers proved that shiny red crystal to be plastic (unless Red Beryl burns and puts out black smoke). Sometimes our hopes and desires push aside our sense and intelligence.

Good luck Vicki, I hope your beryl turns out to be real. Don't let us doubters shut down your search for the facts. I'm an amateur like you, but I've seen even the best of mineralogists misidentify minerals especially from a description and picture. And you might notice that Red Beryl is about as appreciated on Mindat as healing crystals. I suspect it has something to do with marketing scams like "Red Emerald" and "$10,000 a carat."

17th Dec 2018 03:57 UTCDoug Daniels

Don't know if Vicki is still reading things here, but a few comments in case she is. It likely is the case that she thought we were calling the stone a fake. No ma'am, we weren't. We were giving our knowledge and experience, with UNCUT red beryls. Remember, this is a mineral collecting related site, not a cut stone evaluation/valuation site. And either way, we cannot definitely identify a mineral/cut stone/whatever from just photos. Well, with a mineral, sometimes. A cut stone - no, more info is needed, and there are few here that can help (Owen Lewis comes to mind, but haven't heard from him in while). Again Vicki (if you are reading this), we are not ridiculing you. Just that we don't have the data to give you a yea of nay about the stone. And, as Daryl in the post above said. Please don't be a stranger.

17th Dec 2018 16:29 UTCOwen Lewis

Hi Doug,

Just sitting quietly in a corner, bouncing my ball and chewing my gum....

You are absolutely right in that it is no possible to give a certain ID for a crystal that has been cut and polished without (at the least) running a few basic tests. However, for uncut crystals on matrix, just eyeballing is quite often enough to be strongly indicative. But, even then, if I'm going to sign off an opinion as stronger than 'it looks like', personally, I would still want at least to have had the piece in my hands and to examine it under good lights and (preferably) with a microscope.

Returning to red beryl. This should never be confused, even for a second, with morganite. It has a rich redness of a different quality to any of the other red crystals I have seen and it is just this that makes it so desirable. As others have said, it is most frequently too flawed to cut and polish a red beryl gem of any substantial size. Here's a couple of shots of one of mine, showing the heavy flawing but also (IMHO) capturing at least a glimpse of the wonderful red colour quality referred to.

17th Dec 2018 16:55 UTCDonald B Peck Expert

Beautiful, Owen!

17th Dec 2018 17:31 UTCDoug Daniels

Nice one, Owen!

17th Dec 2018 19:43 UTCVicki Tremont

Yes, I took down the pics because my friend got upset when he found out that I posted them online. For some reason he didn't want me to do that... so I am respecting his wishes. I had asked him for the pics but never really told him what I needed them for. Remember, this is his stone, not mine. I was just asking about his comment of how he doesn't think he could find someone who would buy it and wouldn't know what to charge for it. It just struck me as odd that such a rare gemstone wouldn't be able to find a buyer and I am curious to know what such a stone would be worth. I guess maybe this is the wrong forum though since this is more of a specimen group rather than gemstone.

As far as the other comments, neither I nor my friend have a pic of the specimen in the matrix. He didn't take a pic before he cut the stone and he cut it a couple years ago. I did not see it prior to it being cut either. I am just going by what he said. Correct me if I am wrong, but if he bought it from a mineral show, don't the sellers legally have to tell you what the stone really is? I too am skeptical about the size but he swears up and down that it is a legit red beryl.

17th Dec 2018 21:22 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

"Correct me if I am wrong, but if he bought it from a mineral show, don't the sellers legally have to tell you what the stone really is?"

I don't know about the legality of specimen identification, but if there is such a thing then there are a LOT of folks breaking the law! I think the vast majority of mislabellings aren't malicious. It's because the person doesn't really know what the piece is and they've made a guess, and/or are echoing what a previous label had.

On the other hand, odds are that there are folks out there who are mislabelling specimens for financial gain...

18th Dec 2018 03:40 UTCDoug Daniels

Well, at least we know why the photos disappeared. As far as someone who buys a specimen with the intention of cutting a stone out of it - Obviously, most don't think to document their specimen, especially if it's something rare or unusual. So, take a photo of the original specimen (with some kind of scale). If it's a gem crystal that has to be "popped" off the matrix, fine; weigh the son of a gun after extracting it (a lot gets lost in the cutting process). Then, after cutting, weigh again. But that's just me and my scientific way of thinking.

As for the things value (whatever stone it is), it's ultimately what someone is willing to pay for it. As far as a 7-carat red beryl from Utah, would most likely be of interest to collectors of one-of-a-kind stones. Depends on whether he advertises the beastie. And he can start the price negotiation; if his asking price is too high, he will soon find that out. "Ya pays yer money, ya takes yer chances". Or something like that. Might try gemdat.org, although I haven't done a lot of looking on that site.

21st Dec 2018 18:43 UTCNick Gilly

Owen Lewis Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Hi Doug,

>

> Just sitting quietly in a corner, bouncing my ball

> and chewing my gum....

>

> You are absolutely right in that it is no possible

> to give a certain ID for a crystal that has been

> cut and polished without (at the least) running a

> few basic tests. However, for uncut crystals on

> matrix, just eyeballing is quite often enough to

> be strongly indicative. But, even then, if I'm

> going to sign off an opinion as stronger than 'it

> looks like', personally, I would still want at

> least to have had the piece in my hands and to

> examine it under good lights and (preferably) with

> a microscope.

>

> Returning to red beryl. This should never be

> confused, even for a second, with morganite. It

> has a rich redness of a different quality to any

> of the other red crystals I have seen and it is

> just this that makes it so desirable. As others

> have said, it is most frequently too flawed to cut

> and polish a red beryl gem of any substantial

> size. Here's a couple of shots of one of mine,

> showing the heavy flawing but also (IMHO)

> capturing at least a glimpse of the wonderful red

> colour quality referred to.

>

>

Very nice specimen Owen!

For comparison, here's my in-matrix specimen of red beryl, which is a thumbnail-size piece:

22nd Dec 2018 13:13 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

As was asked above concerning the honesty of a seller. A good example was a few years back a woman came into our shop and over some nice talking she asked if we minded if she showed us a cut stone she had purchased from another local store. It was sold as a watermelon tourmaline. As soon as we saw the stone we knew it was actually ametrine and asked a bit more about the sellers claim and she said he had thought it was a watermelon tourmaline and never said anything about the ametrine. The woman loved the stone and we told her it was a natural material but not what she had hoped. We never asked what she had paid for the stone, not our problem but it was about thumb size so a large stone. It seems the sellers comment of not being sure about what it was kind of covered him if he had her come back but I think they knew what they were selling. These kinds of things are fairly common and we see this often.

It sure would have been nice to have seen the above red beryl in matrix, that pretty much would have told its origin.

Interesting read none the less.

4th Feb 2019 17:06 UTCMike Robertson

I have some large recently found crystals that I have.

I'll post some pictures when I get a little free time.

4th Feb 2019 19:04 UTCMike Robertson

OK, how do I insert pictures?

Sorry, Figured it out. :-)

4th Feb 2019 19:07 UTCMike Robertson

OK, this is a 5.51ct crystal.

4th Feb 2019 20:15 UTCWayne Corwin

Mike

What size are they besides 5.51ct? You have nothing for scale in your photos.

4th Feb 2019 20:52 UTCMike Robertson

From Side to side to side:

9.0 x 8.42 x 8.33

Depth to lowest point

6.1mm

Aprox. depth to center 6.65mm

5th Feb 2019 19:35 UTCDaryl Babcock

On the tabular side of being either prismatic or tabular, no matrix, deep raspberry... I would guess Wildhorse Springs. Maybe one of the Ruby Violet claims, but they are usually much more prismatic and more red than raspberry.

Tabular and raspberry almost always means Thomas Range, but they almost always have sand inclusions. I can see where the matrix was, did you remove it or was it already removed when you collected/purchased it? Size is about right for Thomas Range as well, though I've only seen a few pictures of the Wildhorse stuff (as well as John Holfert's descriptions).

Was this self-collected or purchased? Do you know where and when it was collected?

It is a very nice beryl!

8th Feb 2019 22:21 UTCMike Robertson

It came from the Ruby Violet Claim. Purchased directly from the mine owner. I also have some other crystals, but they are not as nice as this one.

8th Feb 2019 22:22 UTCMike Robertson

Here are all the crystals.

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