Apatite : Ca₅(PO₄)₃(Cl/F/OH)
Birileiten, Spitz, Krems-Land District, Lower Austria, Austria

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minID: D5H-MFY

Apatite : Ca₅(PO₄)₃(Cl/F/OH)

Locality: ⓘ Birileiten, Spitz, Krems-Land District, Lower Austria, Austria

The specimen was collected in the stream bed right below the chrysoberyl locality.

FOV: 5,6 mm

Nikon D4, Mitutoyo 5x Plan-Apo ELWD on bellows.

This specimen required a somewhat different photographic approach as it proved impossible to achieve perfect lighting on both xls simultaneously. The xls were individually lit, and two partial stacks (ZereneStacker, Pmax) of 116 and 76 images, respectively, were subsequently combined into one final image.

This photo has been shown 429 times

Photo added:	15th Dec 2012
Dimensions:	1000x674px (0.67 megapixels)

Data Identifiers

Mindat Photo ID:	503247 📋 (quote this with any query about this photo)
Long-form Identifier:	mindat:1:4:503247:8 📋
GUID:	fb0ec618-7209-4caf-bc8c-195702adb0fc 📋
Specimen MinID	D5H-MFY (note: this is not unique to this photo, it is unique to the specimen)

View Harald Schillhammer's Photos View Apatite Gallery

Discuss this Photo

PhotosApatite - Birileiten, Miesling valley, Spitz, Wachau, Lower Austria, Austria

15th Dec 2012 18:12 UTCManfred Kampf Expert

Another post process is possible..........:-)

A taste question a photo is to be worked on, in the end. Indeed, there is a subject which finds too little attention. In my opinion the white ballance is faulty with most photos, so that the colors are wrong shown. My impression is that this photo is an example.

15th Dec 2012 19:09 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

I don't understand. Is the apatite blue or colourless?

17th Dec 2012 00:09 UTCMartin Rich Expert

I know Apatite from this locality. The Apatite from there is mostly colourless or nearly withe so I think the WB of Harald´s camera is ok.

17th Dec 2012 01:00 UTCDan R. Lynch

Of course I haven't seen the specimen in person, but the color looks fine to me.

But, always bear in mind that ALL computer monitors are different and have different color profiles, so no one will see a photo in quite the same way.

17th Dec 2012 06:08 UTCHarald Schillhammer Expert

Well, to some extent Manfred has a point, although his rendition (color and contrast) of my image is definitely over the top. I will hopefully have time to reply in detail during the day, because it is not as easy as it may seem.

So stay tuned.

17th Dec 2012 08:11 UTCManfred Kampf Expert

Rob, if you can see the apatite crystals blue there must be something wrong, this is the real problem. at my screens i can see both photos the apatite is colourless. Only waste screens show the colours wrong, independent from the photo.

Martin, have you any idea about photography? I mean it is not a question of the quality of the cam. the most important point is the light and the situation. I know very well how difficult it is to control the light and so it is, in every case for me, important to correct such things during the post process.

Equally it is shown that a lot of photos have the light at the wrong place, the edges are bright and the shown mineral is dark. To correct such mistakes in ps is very easy. It seems that the most photographers don't know how they can do it.

Dan, what you are saying is not completely correct. i mean the most screens you can correct the 24 step grey scale. If you can see all steps your screen is okay and mostly the colours are okay.

The following link shows the grey scale and everbody can control it's screen.

http://www.industriedenkmal.de/index.html

17th Dec 2012 09:05 UTCHarald Schillhammer Expert

Manfred Kampf Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

Actually, I regard it as rather cheeky to interprete the colors of a specimen you have not seen in person. But first things first.

> Rob, if you can see the apatite crystals blue

> there must be something wrong, this is the real

> problem. at my screens i can see both photos the

> apatite is colourless. Only waste screens show the

> colours wrong, independent from the photo.

The left xl has indeed an ever so slight blueish hue :), or maybe it is just a trick of the eye.

Manfred, we had this topic before, but this is primarily a mineralogy forum/database and not a photography forum and only a very few are willing or can afford top notch equipment or have the time to acquire the knowledge necessary to become a photography, photo-editing or color management specialist.

The same goes for monitors. Not everyone can afford a top end monitor, possibly with 14-bit LUT and 16-bit processing. Just for your information: at work I use a cheaper NEC monitor but all my serious post-processing is done at home on a more expensive EIZO monitor, both are calibrated. BTW - after having dealt with many monitors in my closer environment I found out that most mid to high end monitors have almost perfect colors by default and nowadays I restrict my calibrating mostly to luminance and contrast levels which by default are way too high.

> Equally it is shown that a lot of photos have the

> light at the wrong place, the edges are bright and

> the shown mineral is dark. To correct such

> mistakes in ps is very easy. It seems that the

> most photographers don't know how they can do it.

I agree that lighting is the most crucial factor in mineral photography - but - as far as correct reproduction of the colors is concerned, you have to differ between a camera sensor and the human brain. You should never underestimate the human brain's ability to interpolate. Also, it is a big difference between viewing a specimen in a stereoscopic microscope (movement and thus constantly changing light angles, 3D view) and capturing it with a camera. Especially, in extreme photomicrography, you often have the decision between displaying the transparency of a xl or the faces and edges. It is much easier with larger specimens.

I have taken the WB measurement manually with a Gretag McBeth color checker and still, the camera sees things differently from my eye. That is why I always have to correct colors in post processing, often locally and not for the entire image. In case of the photo in question, the problem is that the yellow color of the mica and also the feldspar which around the apatite xls is also yellowish stained, casts a yellowish hue on the xls. Through the stereoscopic microscope the xls appear colorless but on the photo you always see a slight reflection of that color on the faces. Your rendition of the image is way too dark and too contrasty and the mica appears dark brown instead of yellowish. The truth is probably somewhere in between but - after having checked the specimen again - closer to my version than yours.

> Dan, what you are saying is not completely

> correct. i mean the most screens you can correct

> the 24 step grey scale. If you can see all steps

> your screen is okay and mostly the colours are

> okay.

If the colors are not way off they have hardly any influence on the correct display of a grey scale step wedge. But correcting the brightness and contrast is a first good step and usually sufficient (see above) if you do not have a very old monitor.

O.k., I have to run now - if some more comments come to my mind, I will be back :).

Cheers

17th Dec 2012 09:39 UTCHarald Schillhammer Expert

Manfred Kampf Wrote:

-------------------------------------------------------

> Martin, have you any idea about photography? I

Maybe not as much as you :), but he knows the locality and its minerals pretty well.

17th Dec 2012 15:48 UTCHarald Schillhammer Expert

O.k., replaced the image with a slightly re-edited version as it was indeed a bit to low in contrast. It perfectly matches the original specimen now - go figure :).

17th Dec 2012 20:55 UTCMartin Rich Expert

Hey, I´m a lucky guy, I can see all 24 shades of grey (a naughty boy, who think about an other interpersonal thing ;-)). Calibrating the colour with a gey card is not sure by 100 % .

If the light is on a wrong place, I think it is a work for the waste, to correct it in post. In such cases, it´s better to make the pic new with an other setup. Photographing minerals is also a question of personal taste.

I´m a beginner in photographing minerals, but I know how difficult it is. Here on Mindat are a lot of photos with good quality, independent how much the seup is. On the other hand, there are a lot of not so good photos, but I think it is ok for documenting minerals.

After contolling the WB with Gimp 2.8, the original photograph seems ok. Sorry Manfred, your post worked photo looks with my midlife eyes and on my Medion laptop screen a little bit too dark and too blueish to me.

Anyway, all members of Mindat can see the different below:

20th Dec 2012 08:13 UTCChristian Auer 🌟 Expert

Thanks to Harald that he calibrated my EIZO monitor too! Calibration is the most important factor in re-processing, otherwise you`ll get crazy.

Did you know that your native colour sensitivity changes depending on your age?

You turn to see pics more and more yellow while you become older, so with calibration you should still always write your age after every pic ;-)

There`s another crucial factor in re-working stacked pics. The quantity of pics!

Its a difference if you concentrate on one pic per month or hundred. I for instance have still several 1000s waiting here and need at least 1 hour per pic per completely process right now. So I need to get the right balance between quality and quantity.

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Apatite : Ca5(PO4)3(Cl/F/OH)Birileiten, Spitz, Krems-Land District, Lower Austria, Austria