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Identity HelpFluorichterite from Wilberforce

23rd Jan 2012 20:03 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Can someone who collected at the Fluorichterite locality ( noted in Sabina's book) back in the 1970's, http://www.mindat.org/loc-73288.html, tell me if the outcrop currently exposed south of Essonville road http://www.mindat.org/loc-73287.html are one and the same ( or an extension of) ?

23rd Jan 2012 20:48 UTCLloyd Van Duzen Expert

Hi Reiner,

My wife and myself visited the site in the summer of 2010. We were following directions from the guidebook from the bancroft chamber of commerce. In the guidebook it is mentioned as a roadcut.

I remember that day driving past the site a few kilometers and realizing we had passed the roadcut mentioned in the guidebook.

As far as I remember we did not see any other roadside outcrops driving west on Essonville road past the actual roadside outcrop.

I may be mistaken, but just before the roadside outcrop on the north side of the road, Wilberforce side, a road leads to a lakeside resort or something like that, for some reason I think the farm occurrence is possibly found somewhere along this driveway/roadway to this lakeside resort like place. If so I believe the occurrences would be found on the same parcel of land, not all that far apart because the lake is not all that far from the Essonville Road.

I never ventured down this road, but parked just off the paved road at this entranceway. At that time I never heard of the farm occurrence, just the roadcut.

I have actually questioned this before too Reiner, and am aware of Sabina's mention of the Farm but yet to see recent documentation of its existence.

I would see what others may offer in regards to these occurrences and maybe, hopefully conclude these places are one the same or separate occurrences.

Lloyd.

23rd Jan 2012 21:37 UTCLloyd Van Duzen Expert

Just wondering if there is any connection to Earles Road south of wilberforce on 648 (South Wilberforce).

Maybe the road has been named after the the Earl's family and their farm/homestead. Ontario Geological Survey lists only fluorite, calcite (filler), graphite, corundom, nepheline syenite, mica and uranuim occurrences that looks like they were accessed via Earles Road. No mention of fluorichterite occurring in this area.

If there is any connection then they would be two different occurrences.

Just thinking about a possible connection of the Earles road name to the Earle's Farm Fluorichterite Occurrence.

Again maybe others familiar these localities can offer some information.

Lloyd.

23rd Jan 2012 22:16 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Earle's Road is a totally different place. I guess there must have been two Earle families in the area.

23rd Jan 2012 23:32 UTCLloyd Van Duzen Expert

A online link from the Smithsonian Institute makes reference to fluorichterite from a George earle Farm.

http://collections.si.edu/search/results.jsp?q=record_ID:nmnhmsweb_1074749

Lot 27, Concession XIV, Monmouth Township would be the approximate location of the roadcut, looks like it is the same occurrence.

Unless there are two different occurrences on the same lot.

Hope this helps.

Lloyd.

24th Jan 2012 00:39 UTCJohn Duck

Reiner,

My understanding is that the original deposit was 0.1 km past the Sunset Cottage Road turnoff when traveling from Wilberforce. I believe the current roadcut is about 0.3 km past Sunset Cottage Road. This would put the old location close to the current road cut. The old guides recommended parking at the junction with Sunset Cottage Road and walking to the deposit. It appears that the two locations are different exposures of the same geologic formation separated by perhaps 200 or so meters. The old one was obliterated and the current one was exposed by the road improvements.

To be clear I visited the current road cut several times in the 1990s but never visited the former George Earl deposit although I was collecting in the area beginning in 1974.

John Duck

24th Jan 2012 01:01 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I am wondering if we should merge the two localities into one. Any thoughts on that?

24th Jan 2012 01:37 UTCLloyd Van Duzen Expert

Unless collectors who have specimens collected before the the roadwork upgrade oppose this, it should be merged.

Since there is currently only the one exposure of fluorichterite on the Essonville Line where people can stop, look and collect it should be the only locality listed. This merge of these localities would be current and still relevant to collectors interested in the site known as the historic Earle Farm locality.

A name for instance could be ` Essonville Line roadcut, (Earle Farm) Fluorichterite Occurrence`` Then listed under the name would be all relevant info about the Earle Farm occurrence as well as the roadcut occurrence. All pics should be able to retain their titles then.

Just my thoughts on your proposal.

Lloyd.

24th Jan 2012 08:14 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

HI

I'm not from there or know anything about the particular locality but.....

from reading the above it still sounds like two different localities to me .. even if separated by a few hundred meters.

Merging localities simply due to the fact that the current one is the only one from which you can now collect does not make sense to me unless it perhaps becomes part of a much larger mine / open cut and the former is effectively merged into the new locality.

I for one have a specimen from what I imagine is the original site, collected, from memory in the 1970s (will have to check later).

I would guess the mineral specimen itself may be offended if you change its birth-place !!

It certainly would remain of historical interest and for those specimens collected in earlier times they could perhaps indicate slightly different mineral asocaition / composition etc.

Cheers

24th Jan 2012 08:55 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

I agree with Keith. But we can have it both ways: merged and separate, just by making the 2 roadcuts, the historic one and the current one, into sublocalities of a larger unit.

You fellows who are familiar with the sites (which I am not) just need to decide what you want to call them, and what you want to call the larger area that includes both cuts, and then we can arrange that.

24th Jan 2012 12:25 UTCgord major

The fluororicheterite locality where I first collected was in the ditch at the front of the farm along the fence line at the base of a tree. I couldn't identify it the last time I was up there it appears the the calcite up from the the road appears to be this locality

I remember the Sunset Cottage reference but it was down the road and I never visited it

24th Jan 2012 18:45 UTCJohn Duck

Reiner,

I tend to agree with Keith and Alfredo. Many collections contain specimens from the George Earl farm and many of us have samples from the current roadcut. I think we need to preserve the two locations. I like Alfredo's suggestion of making the two roadcuts sublocalities, as I believe the two sites are outcrops of the same formation.

I would suggest Geoge Earl farm for the older location and Essonville Road for the current collecting location. The superlocality could be called something like Essonville Road Fluorichterite Occurences. Just some suggestions.

John

25th Jan 2012 00:43 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Gord when did you collect there?

25th Jan 2012 23:49 UTCLloyd Van Duzen Expert

I would say that it is wise to keep the two localitities separate due to the reasons already mentioned.

Since this locality has been questioned twice now maybe some information could be added to the name or description making reference to both occurrences.

Also historical reference is very important in many ways, this is important to me.

Considering that fluorichterite is somewhat uncommon all information that is documented in some way about these occurrences should be valid and relevant and available for reference.

Maybe a update of the locality's description would work.

I have seen the material photos here and there are pics from both the roadcut and George Earle Farm and they really should reflect where they were collected.

Lloyd.

26th Jan 2012 19:08 UTCPeter Szarka

removed

27th Jan 2012 02:34 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Hello Peter ,

Which road are you talking about? Is it the Essonville road, or a farm road off the Essonville road? From what you say it sounds like the Earl farm was on the steep hill on the north side of the Essonville road? or is there also a steep hill on the south side? But if the collectors worked the south side (and undermined the road) "The flat-lying bedrock had been exposed on the south side of the road for quite a few meters and the fluor-richterites were encased in a salmon to peach colored calcite." why did they say it came from the Earl farm on the north side? Furthermore, how could there be a house built on it afterwards if the outcrop was under the south side of the Essonville road? The current out crop is on the south side of the Essonville Road, is this then a new excavation on the same outcrop that the township burried on the south side of the road? All very confusing to me.

12th Feb 2012 02:23 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Unless we can figure out exactly where the Earles Farm occurrence was there is no way of knowing for sure if the two are the same. If like Alfredo suggests we keep them separate but under one heading what do we call it. May I suggest simply Fluororichterite Occurrence and then the other two as sublocalities until we figure it all out. Any objections to this?

12th Feb 2012 05:12 UTCStephanie Martin

Reiner,

Just to make things more muddy I have a specimen with a label that indicates collected in 1974 and lists both "Essonville Road Cut" and "George Earle Property". I purchased it from a dealer about 7 years ago for $3 but the original label attached was from the collection of D.R. Elliot. Perhaps the Elliots might have more info? Might be worth a shot to inquire. Address and phone number cropped for privacy.

regards,

steph

13th Feb 2012 02:11 UTCPeter Szarka

removed

24th May 2013 14:21 UTCRay Rector

Don't know if any one is following this today or not.The samples from George Earle site was dumped there as over burden from the road cut. There is only one site, the road north of Earle's farm. This was told to me years ago by George Farr, Lee Clark. long time people of the area.

17th Mar 2016 16:27 UTCMark Bramham

Hello ;My name is Mark Bramham. My son Josh and I own the property around the Fluororichterite site on the south side of the road just west of Sunset Cottage Road on the Essonville Line. We own Greenmantle Farm and offer guided mineral tours on our property and on the adjacent crown lot. Our website is www.mineraltours.net .If you still have any questions about this mineral or others in the area, I would be happy to help. Please contact me at info@mineraltours.net

12th Apr 2016 21:29 UTCSandra Bramham

Hello,

I was just on the Mindat website and discovered your letters. I am hoping to clear up your questions regarding the Fluororichterite rock cut on the Essonville line.

My husband, son, & I currently own the property on the other side of the fence (south side of the road) where the fluororichterite rock cut is located.This land once belonged to the Earle family. It is just west of Sunset Cottage Rd. on the south side only. The N. side is richterite. I believe that you are all talking about the same site but it's appearance has changed because they blasted the road (Essonville Line) in the late 80's.

We operate a non- collecting mineral tourism business (www.mineraltours.net) .

Sadly the rock cut is greatly depleted as many people have come with jack hammers to remove the minerals. However on our land we have discovered another large pocket of fluororichterite (they changed the spelling) . We have found a large variety of other minerals on our land ( and we have been designated a" provincially significant mineral occurrence"by the Ontario Govt.) We have a mining lease on the adjacent Crown lot.

We do have access to a large supply of the rock containing the fluororichterite that was blasted in order to improve the road in the 80's and if you are interested in obtaining more or in coming for a tour please contact us - info@mineraltours.net or by phone -705-448-3948

I hope this clears up the discrepancy of there possibly being two separate sites,

Regards,

Sandra Bramham

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