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Techniques for CollectorsDiamond Saw cutting fluid

29th Sep 2006 23:43 UTCTim Colman

I ahve a Lortone TS10 10" slabbing saw - the cheap one where the saw picks up the cutting fluid from the tank below (no pump). I have run out of the fluid the saw came with (bought from Holland) and cannot find a supplier in the UK. I have tried water (too thin) and motor flushing oil (too viscous) and have found a 50/50 (roughly) mixture of flushing oil and paraffin works fine. But it is so messy and leaves the rocks very oily.

Does anyone know of a source of cutting fluid in the UK?

Many thanks

Tim

30th Sep 2006 05:33 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

Tim...I use a 6" diamond blade for trimming those specimens which run the risk of crystal lose by hydroulic or percussive trimming and my only lube/coolant is water. a friend who does MUCh more slab work than I said I should talk to an automotive machine shop....they use a water/detergent soluble liquid when grinding valves, heads, etc.....worth a try....I've not pursued brcause water works well for me!!

29th Jul 2011 00:32 UTCJim Walker & Mary Fong/Walker

Tim:

Diamond is unusual in that it has a pronounced attraction for: oils, greases, waxes and similarly non-polar molecules. What this means to you is that, if you are looking for the longest life for your blade then use an oil: Ones made for grinding Aluminum or Magnesium seem to be good. If ease of removal of the cutting fluid is more important, go with a water-based cutting fluid or even water itself. Be advised: Using water based cutting fluids frequently results in rusting of steel saw components, if they are not drained and the saw dried thoroughly between uses.

JW

29th Jul 2011 01:27 UTCBart Cannon

I HATE oil coolants. If you are cutting porous rock the smell never goes away.

Water is the best coolant. That's why oil is not used in your car's radiator. It's also a pretty good lubricant.

In my saws I use a rust inhibitor called "Crystalcut".

It's a powder that dissolves in water, and does a good job of preserving the steel on diamond blades.

It's made by the Crystalite Corporation.

29th Jul 2011 04:32 UTCJim Walker & Mary Fong/Walker

Jeez Bart!!

That's a little harsh, dude!

( actually; he's right. The stuff does smell a bit, but water is not the best coolant - it's the best smelling coolant.)

Speaking of which; water based coolants using additives do tend to attract opportunistic microbes as any machining operation that recycles their coolants can tell you.

So... if you only do a little sawing, water is the way to go. If it's a lot, then oil is the only choice.

good luck

JW

29th Jul 2011 09:53 UTCPeter Trebilcock Expert

Hi Tim,

I use a cutting oil called" Metprep" it's available from: www. manchesterminerals.co.uk

Mix with water 20 parts to 1 of oil,works fine on my 10" saw.

Usual disclaimer with the company who i have no connection with.

Regards Peter.

29th Jul 2011 13:07 UTCBart Cannon

Jim,

I didn't dream that you were so sensitive about calling out smack against oil !

I should have been more sensitive toward a guy who lives in the Los Angeles Basin.

Actually, I will agree with you, and even though I'm a big bacteria man, it hadn't occurred to me that iron metabolizing bacteria don't thrive in oil.

Only in water. Perhaps Crystal Cut is just a bacteriacide.

It's true that all big production style slabbing saws used to cut agate, jasper, and petrified wood use oil.

Such low porosity materials don't retain the smell of the oil as much as other materials more common as matrix on crystal specimens.

But I still say that among the common liquids, water has the highest heat transfer value.

Perhaps the use of oil as a lubricant creates less heat that needs to be dissipated.

29th Jul 2011 13:20 UTCBart Cannon

Jim,

Oopsie !

I forgot that you now live in the upland igneous metamorphic terrain of Fallbrook. Not in Los Angeles.

But you did spend some of your early life marveling at those hypnotic "pumpjacks" that once thrived all over L.A..

Somehow or other they spell romance for my 90 year old mother who grew up in Los Angeles in the 1930s and 1940s.

Maybe it's because that's when she was dancing with Ceasar Romero until she met my dad.

30th Jul 2011 01:48 UTCRock Currier Expert

I think most of the commercial cutting of agate and other stones is done using kerosene as a lubricant and coolant. At least such is the case in Brazil. However, agates are a bit more porous than one might think. In Brazil, many of the slabs and other items are died and when the agates are removed from the saws, they are shortly given a bath in warm soapy water to remove the kerosene. If they don't do that pretty quick, enough of the kerosene soaks into the agates to screw up the dying process. If oil gets absorbed into the agate it inhibits the absorption of the coloring agent into the agate and makes them look "blotchy". Of course, kerosene is a bit more of a fire hazard tan some of the other coolants. I have seen some saws in use that are all black and burnt looking because they caught on fire, though this seems to be a problem with the really big saws they have there, the ones with the 2 meter blades. Doesn't seem to happen much to the smaller saws.

30th Jul 2011 09:42 UTCDebbie Woolf Manager

Hi Tim

I also recommend Manchester Minerals as mentioned above by Peter.

:)

30th Jul 2011 17:19 UTCDonald Slater

For my 6 inch saw I like what they call water soluble synthetics such as Gem Lube from Kinglsey North but there are other brands. They clean up faster and do not stain soft porous material like turquoise. Most brands don't recommend them for saws bigger than 8 or 10 inch. For my 18 inch saw I use hydraulic fluid. It doesn't smell bad and cleans up easily. A lot of people I know use food grade mineral oil with good success but I am not sure of the cost and have not tried it.

31st Jul 2011 12:45 UTCBart Cannon

My bias against oil runs deeper than the mess and the stink.

Most of my trimming and slabbing is toward the end of preparing polished thick sections for electron microprobe analysis.

Oil soaked sections are not amenable in vacuum OR the process of carbon coating for the beam circuit.

Does anyone remember "Janitor in a Drum" ? Their ads ran hundreds of times per day back in the 60s and 70s. Now it needs to be special ordered.

Does anyone remember when it was discovered that soaking marcasites and pyrrhotites in Janitor in a Drum would extend the lives of such specimens ? Probably due to the strong bacteriacidal nature of Janitor in a drum.

I'm going to buy some and drop some iron nails into it to see if they rust. If they don't rust then the rust inhibition and detergent action might of Janitor in a Drum make for a good, cheap diamond saw coolant.

Here's a question for the diamond tool people: Which coolant is best for the lifetime of the actual diamond ?

Diamonds are sintered, pressed or nickel plated onto the steel blade rims. Which process is best for blade lifetimes ?

The cheap blades are nickel plated diamond slurry. I think they work just fine, and they are SILLY cheap.

I've been jury rigging mods to diamond saws since 1970. I have built gravity feed saws that produce perfect cuts, chop saws from cheapie chinese miter saws, and my favorite for little stuff is the Ameritool trim saw. The Ameritool has a one piece molded saw housing with a powerful variable speed motor. I built a drain line for the coolant basin so that I can empty the coolant tank between uses..

My Hillquist thin section machine uses the dry technology. Both the saw blade and the laps sit in air. When the machine is activated the pump sprays Crystal Lite treated water on the diamond tooling.

What I always do is to make sure that all my saws rest in AIR not in WATER.

31st Jul 2011 13:08 UTCTim Colman

Thanks for all the advice. I have used MetPrep from Manchester Minerals but it is costly (£16 or $25 for a small tin). The 10" saw is at the limit of splash lubrication but with care and going slowly I find I can get by with less than the recommended 1 : 20 dilution. I agree that oil is horrible and any porous rock is unusable afterwards. I also found the proper aluminium oxide 'sharpening' stones are also very expensive so buy cheap ones from the local pound shops for £1 apiece. they seem to do the job just as well.

Tim Colman

2nd Aug 2011 01:25 UTCAdam Berluti

I just read in a 1999 vol. of Rock and Gem that suggested you can use ROC OIL. According to Rock and Gem

"It is both clean and safe, has good lubricity and adequately cools the blade. This oil is approved by the FDA as a food grade mineral oil. It is used to grease commercial backing pans. It has little or no odor, prolongs blade life, and makes blades easier to clean. It is available from Diamond Pacific in Barstow 1-800-253-2954 (website is diamondpacific.com)."

It is available in 1 gal jugs for $30 with shipping weight at 8lbs or 4 gallon cases for $115 the shipping weight is 32 pounds.

Hope this helps

Adam

2nd Aug 2011 01:50 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

"food grade mineral oil" ???

That's scary. Now I guess I'll have to learn to do my own baking too. :S

2nd Aug 2011 02:36 UTCJim Walker & Mary Fong/Walker

Bart:

You seem to think that i'm championing the use of oil as a saw coolant. That is not the case. What I was attempting to do was present the various tradeoffs that anyones choice of coolant would involve, based on a number of factors that I have observed.

The ONLY excuse for using oil as a coolant involves two things.

1. Although water has a higher heat capacity than oil, and thus is normally a better "coolant", that advantage is largely negated by the fact that diamond, due to its covalently bonded carbon atoms has a FIERCE love for oleaginous substances. e.g. oil and grease. A simple proof for this assertion is the fact that for years diamond mining operations have been washing their diamond bearing gravel over plates coated with grease: the "grease tables", in order to capture only the diamonds from the wet process stream. There are very few things, that when already water wetted will preferentially attach themselves to a greasy/oily surface: diamond is one of them.

The reverse side of this is that oil tends to be much more tenacious where it counts: at the actual contact between the diamond abrasive and the work, resulting in much longer lifetimes for "oil cooled" blades.

2. Does not encourage rusting of steel part: blades, bearings, ways, etc.

The downside of oil is that:

1. It tends to soak into the work to a greater or lesser degree and is difficult and in some cases; impossible to get out.

2. Most, but not all oils (think straight mineral oil- the colorless stuff), SMELL.

Water based coolants on the other hand:

1. Don't smell; usually.

2. Are cheap; comparatively.

3. Can't be set on fire by morons who think all "oils" are the same with respect to mist flammability. Check with Rock about this opportunity for fun. I believe he has a tale or two.

4. Don't have sludge disposal problems.

5. Won't give you grief the next time you have to microprobe a bookend.

I personally believe that we (all of us) have beaten this horse just about as far as we need to.

As a final note: In regard to the various comments about which blade types are 'better', my observation is that - it kinda depends on how much cutting that you anticipate doing. Some occasional cutting - go with plated, they're much, much cheaper. Going to do a lot of cutting - Go with sintered/pressed. And if you do - you better have some ideas about: what type of bond is holding the diamonds to the blade, what size diamonds are optimal and lastly: what percentage of diamonds to bond is optimal. An old hand at the commercial sawing game (Herb Walters) wised me up on these factors and I have to say that he was right. Oh, and common bricks work pretty well as "sharpening stones".

Now let's go have a beer.

JW

P.S: We weren't near the "pumpjacks", we're sitting on a granitic batholith and Romero's first name is spelled 'Cesar'. Hi to your mom - she's cool.

14th Nov 2012 01:26 UTCjawernex@fairpoint.net

I have been using canola oil in a 16 inch Nelson oscilating lapidary diamond saw and it works well. It is a bit viscous, however at $8 to $9 per gallon at large grocery outlets am happy with it and it is always available.

14th Nov 2012 08:17 UTCWOLFGANG NOACK

Hello all i am using is a very easy to obtain coolant in my 18 inch lortone saw it is diesel oil same as the trucks and some cars using easy to obtain from the service station by fueling a jerrycan and then in your saw it does smells a bit but keeps the saw clean of rust and well lubricated after sawing i do place the rocks into a bucket with a caustic soda solution this removes most of the coolant left on the rock it does work well with most of the rocks including Australian boulder opal in my other saws 8 inch and 4 inch saws i only use water thence they do not have a hood to prevent spray and you also hand-feed the rock into the saw for cutting

hope this gives you some idea

regards

14th Nov 2012 10:48 UTCChris Stanley Expert

Hello Tim,

In my Dad's garage we used suds oil for diamond saw lubricant. Smell evokes memories of visiting my granddads "Angular Hole Drilling Company".

It can be obtained on ebay

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/WATER-MIX-MILKY-SOLUBLE-SUDS-OIL-CUTTING-OIL-5-LTR-TURNING-MILLING-ETC-/350508970204

BTW, pretty soon I will be looking to dispose of a load of lapidary equipment free to anyone who can visit just off the M1 junction 25.

Cheers

Chris S

15th Nov 2012 02:42 UTCChris Krietsch

I buy my saw oil from Kingsley North in 5 gallon jugs. I have three saws a 14” drop saw “lortone” a 14” side cut saw and a 43 year old 20” controlled feed saw contained in a plywood box. (will post a picture later) Most lapidary oils are simple chain molecular mineral oils with high flash points. This is important because as the oil ionizes it becomes far MORE flammable. Kerosene should NEVER be used as a coolant-lubricant. When you cut stones you create sparks. If you doubt this and have a view window on your saw try cutting an agate at night and you will see the sparks. Lapidary oils are usually non toxic and being simple chained they are easily recycled. The volume of coolant-lubricant stored in the saw/sump determines how hot the oil will become. My 20” saw contains about 20 gallons of oil. The saw is stored outside under a deck in the shade. Last summer after cutting jasper, jade and agate for most of the day the oil temperature went up over 150 degrees, a net gain of more than 50 degrees. Using water for cooling is ok but it does not lubricate the blade. Using oil and a proper feed rate will generally give you cleaner cuts. Using water as a coolant can have some serious implications on blade life depending on how the diamonds or other abrasives are bonded to the blade. The oil also lubricates the blade, reduces friction, allows for faster feed rates and inhibits rust. An important safety precaution when working with any cutting oil is to not inhale the ionized oil. It can cause permanent respiratory damage. I have several 5 gallon buckets and I periodically drain the oil from the machines. If you let the oil sit the solids will settle to the bottom and you can scoop off the clear oil off the top and continue to use it. . Eventually you will have a bucket of solids. If you expose the bucket to temperature swings it will facilitate the oil separation. Eventually you will end up with a solid that resembles paste. Since I have the big saw outside you may encounter water in the oil. If you get water in the oil the easiest way to separate it is to freeze it. If you cut meteorites you should only use one saw or blade for this. It does something to the oil.

16th Nov 2012 06:16 UTCTim Jokela Jr

From what I understand, water is kosher as a coolant for saws up to 10".

I've never used anything else.

Running oil indoors.... ugh.

Who wants to be breathing a mist of fine oil droplets?

For a big-ass saw, outdoors, sure you have to run oil, but the health hazard and flammability problems, and having to scrub the slabs to clean them... no thanks.

25th Dec 2012 17:49 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I use food grade mineral oil and it works great. No smell, not toxic, and washes off easily. It comes in various thickness, I use what is called "#70 White Mineral Oil" It is used to protect food processing equipment. You could also use what is called "Baby Oil" basically the same stuff.

12th Aug 2013 00:30 UTCAdrianc

Hi All,,

To anyone still following this thread.

At "Searchers Gem and Mineral Society" we use "Amber Neutral Light" for all our lager rock slab saws.

This is a rebranded Shell oil, so missing all the merchandising costs, and is identified as a high grade mineral food oil.

It is essentially very low viscosity (read light) highly refined oil suitable for high speed applications and food processing machinery,

probably a 5 or 10 awg mineral oil.

As a food grade oil it has very little odor and also a very high flash point which is important in the slabbing saws and for general safety.

Mobil oil and BP probably have equivalents locally available. A MSDS sheet can be downloaded from our supplier Dion & Sons at

http://www.dionandsons.com.

Our cost is about $12.00 per gallon. Depends on whether you buy 5 gall or 55 gall.

To recycle the oil place sludge in large in double brown paper bags in .a 5 gall bucket with holes to drain the oil into a second bucket

after 2 weeks the sludge will be fairly solid and the oil drained through. Disposal is easy at any oil recycling center.

If you are cutting diamonds, try looking at some of the fascetting guilds or clubs for reccomendations, or John Sinkankas book on cutting gemstones.

We dry our slabs in kitty litter and then wash in dishwashing soap and water. No complaints. If you want better cleaning try Oxyclean and hot water. then denatured alcohol.

For our 10", 6", and 4" saws we use water with a synthetic water miscible oil and surfactant to reduce surface tension. After use they are drained and stored dry.

Hope this helps you find something you can use.

AdrianC

12th Aug 2013 08:17 UTCWOLFGANG NOACK

Hello all you cutters i have been using diesel oil in my large saw (18 inch lortone saw thence i got nearly thirty years ago ) only problem with it is the smell and the cleaning of the cut pieces for which i have been using caustic soda in hot water and then give then a good rinse this does away with all the smelly and greasy bits and cut pieces come out clean and if you read sinkakas book on gem cutting he was using a similar coolant

to all happy cutting

regards wolf

30th Aug 2015 03:24 UTCSherry

I just obtained an old 20 inch rock saw in a big metal box container with a plywood top. I had to scoop out at least 10-15 gallons of way old oil. Still working on the sludge. When I get it ready to run again Can I use canola oil. I don't think this machine has been cleaned in twenty years. Would like to see yours. Thanks

30th Aug 2015 03:44 UTCDoug Daniels

I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure that you don't want to use any of the vegetable oils in the saw. Don't know the specific reason(s), but if it was OK to use them, it would have been standard practice years ago. There are oils specifically made for such saws, the formulation taking into account things like flammability, stability, and toxicity....not sure the best place to fond them these days.

30th Aug 2015 03:59 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

The best oil I have ever used is from Kingsley North in Upper Michigan, called Lubri-Kool.
Kingsley North Inc.

8th May 2016 17:25 UTCDennis

You guys who are into water as a coolant/lubricant are too focused on your saw blade. You're forgetting the much more vital parts of the saw, THE BEARINGS. Water carries grit with it which gets into the bearings, and water is a lousy lubricant for steel bearings which need OIL. Water lubricant slows down the cutting speed/ability of diamond saw blades as well, so if you have auto-feed, pretty soon your blade isn't cutting worth a darn and your power feed gears go bust from pushing harder/faster (you'll excuse the expression) than the blade can get through the rock.

Most saw manufacturers void warranties if you don't use a good cutting oil, and good rockound oils, in fact that's the brand name of a good one, are odorless now.

9th May 2016 06:47 UTCReinhardt van Vuuren

At SA gem club we use a 50/50 mix of motor oil and paraffin or kerosene as other countries know it to be, for the mess we used to have a tub of saw dust that you can rub your hands and stone in to get the oil off, recently however we have simply dedicated an old dish cloth or two to rubbing off all the excess oil. Our previous chairman once tried to go over to water but we found that it was inefficient and encouraged rust so back to oil it is. In terms of motor car oil we use the cheapest one you can find no specific brands or anything.

5th Mar 2019 04:26 UTCColin Phillip Hazell

In reviewing the info offered I am quite disturbed by some suggestion of volatile fuel oils such as kerosine and diesel as a lapidary saw lubricant.

The reasons

1. check the material safety data sheets on these products. Most are considered a cancer risk. By either skin contact or vapour inhalation.

2. As the lubricants used cause misting or micro- droplets in the air, the carcinogenic droplets will be inhaled when in the area of the saw.

3. when the droplet density reaches a high saturation, the vapour density in the air is increased. The vapour ignition point is lower than for the liquid, so any stray spark, ignition source or electrical flash may cause a fire or explosion.

4, The smell is offensive and pervasive.

5. just because it hasn't happened yet doesn't mean it won't. What you choose to do at home is one thing. When you choose to use a material that is dangerous in a club environment where you teach risky behaviour then you endanger your members and teach the newer members to disregard their own safety by example. Thats your risk.

6th Mar 2019 16:01 UTCJohn Truax

Food grade mineral oil works alright, still need to avoid breathing the mist created. Chemical pneumonia is a very unhappy experience.

10th Mar 2019 19:03 UTCDonald B Peck Expert

In past years, I used automotive radiator coolant. It can be diluted with water and has rust inhibitors in it. It doesn't produce much odor, and can be left in the saw tank for a considerable period of time. One needs good splash guards, however, and a simple face mask to prevent breathing the mist.

10th Mar 2019 19:13 UTCDoug Daniels

Have a little knowledge of health & safety things, having worked in the environmental field. Seems that radiator coolant (antifreeze) would be a bit dangerous (well, basically all the coolants are.....). You would need the proper mask to keep from breathing any mist. Not sure how much can be absorbed into one's body by inhalation, but we wouldn't want to hear news story that says one passed away, but an autopsy showed "crystallization in the blood" (or whatever the thing is called - when a spouse got rid of the other by slowly feeding him/her food laced with antifreeze). Then again Don, old fogies like you and me likely don't have to worry much about that; it takes a while. But the young whippersnappers - just trying to make sure they live long and prosper (Vulcan hand sign.....).

10th Mar 2019 20:24 UTCDoug Schonewald

Ethylene Glycol is pretty nasty stuff. Propylene Glycol not so much. I still wouldn't want to breath it, but it is an approved additive (in small amounts I'm sure) in foods, drugs, and cosmetics.

10th Mar 2019 23:28 UTCBen Grguric Expert

On a small 6 inch trim saw, plain water is all I've ever used and that's for thousands of rock samples. You can add a drop or two of dishwashing soap if you want to break up surface tension. I wash out the reservoir after every use to avoid contamination, remove, clean and dry the blade each time I use it. Blade seems to last a long time.

In theory bearings can be affected by water but I've only had to change them about 5 times in 20 years. In the Gemmasta trim saw these are cheap and easily obtained bearings, same ones as used in skateboards.

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