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Techniques for CollectorsMicromount box choice

29th Aug 2008 20:38 UTCDenise Bicknell

I am going to order boxes soon. I'd be interested in your thoughts about these boxes: ease of use, drawbacks, etc. Do any of you use them? Do any of you use the Althor boxes with the pre-cut black papers? If you do, what is it that you like about them?

MICROMOUNT CASE; SLIP FIT EURO STYLE 28 x 28 x 22 mm 100 ea
$9.65

Click to enlarge

White or black base (specify), clear styrene top micromount cases; 28 x 28 x 22 mm; 100 each; EUROMOUNT MICROMOUNT SLIP-FIT SPECIMEN DISPLAY CASES; see additional listings for quantity pricing. these are the European standard for mm specimens.

http://www.shannonsminerals.com/catalog/product_info.php?products_id=196

They seem to be a better price than Althor which are .23 each for less than 1000.

29th Aug 2008 22:39 UTCChris Stefano Expert

I use the ones Shannon sells, by the case you can get them for about $0.11 each including shipping. The only problem I have with them is that the plastic is very thin and they are therefore a bit easier to break than the Althor ones. The Althor ones are also smaller.

29th Aug 2008 23:18 UTCDenise Bicknell

Great, thanks Chris.

29th Aug 2008 23:19 UTCHenry Barwood

Hi Denise,

I've been using the thin walled Euro boxes for about a decade, and prefer them to the "classical" Althor boxes. My main reasons are twofold: First, they are less expensive and Second, they hold slightly larger specimens. Most of my mounting is for photography. Classical MM'er cringe at my mounting techniques, but as long as I can position a crystal for photography, I'm happy.

Henry

29th Aug 2008 23:22 UTCJohn Sobolewski 🌟 Expert

I have used them for several years and like them, especially the ones with the black base on which I mount the specimens directly. They are less sturdy than the Althor boxes, but larger, easier to use, and more affordable. John S.

29th Aug 2008 23:51 UTCDenise Bicknell

Thanks Henry. I have some rather large pieces with micro crystals and I thought these boxes might be better for that. Thanks John, what is your method of choice for affixing the specimen to the base?

30th Aug 2008 01:14 UTCMalcolm Southwood 🌟 Expert

Denise,

I also rather like the European slip-fit boxes. The larger size is very useful, not only because they accommodate slightly larger specimens, but they are easier to label and with somewhat more information should you wish. I started micromounting witth these boxes in the 1980s, and ten years later moved to hinged boxes of similar size. These also look very nice, but I've found the hinges to be a little fragile at times and a hinderance to neat storage. Bottom line - I should have stuck with the slip-fit boxes.

For small specimens I mount on blackened cork pedestals - tiny corks (I think "XXX" and "XXXX" size; though its 20 years now since I bought an enormous supply), with a suitable commercial adhesive (Bostik, UHU, and even the hot glue gun on occasion). For larger specimens where the tack absolutely won't be visible, then I cheat I'm afraid, and use mineral tack. At the end of the day it's the crystals on the display face that I'm interested in, and I'm a mineral collector - not a carpenter!

(By the way - I blacken the corks by shaking 500 or so in a bottle of black Indian Ink, leaving to soak for an hour, and then pouring off the surplus ink through a kitchen sieve. I then spread out the corks on a multi-layer of kitchen towel, and dry them completely with five minutes in the microwave on low power when Angela's out shopping!)

30th Aug 2008 03:10 UTCDenise Bicknell

Thanks for the photo and the pointers Malcolm. How do you attach the corks to the box?

30th Aug 2008 06:13 UTCJohn Sobolewski 🌟 Expert

I cheat and use mineral tack, but just enough so that the specimen sticks to the black base and the mineral tack is not visible. For me, this works well except for the tiniest of specimens. I put the name of the species on a thin strip of paper which I stick on the bottom edge of the clear top so that the specimen is clearly visible. Additional information (associated minerals, location etc) are on a 1 by 3/4 inch Avery sticky label stuck on the bottom of the black base. John S.

30th Aug 2008 08:44 UTCSteve Sorrell Expert

In Australia, we are lucky to have a local manufacturer that produces the boxes that I use - 28mmx28mmx25mm. These allow for slightly bigger specimens again. They can be obtained as all clear base and lid, black base and lid, or any combination. The plastic is also sturdy and there is ample room for labels (I use Avery 24x19mm). See attached photo of boxes...

Regards

Steve

30th Aug 2008 08:46 UTCMalcolm Southwood 🌟 Expert

Denise

I find that the same glue works pretty well for fixing the cork to the box.

Regards

mal

30th Aug 2008 17:23 UTCDana Morong

When you find a box that you like, and find you really like to do this, then buy a big supply. The bother of differing sizes is that when they stop making the size you like, then you have to start over with another size, and possibly other-sized liners (if used). Also, if you store the little boxes in a larger box, or a tray, if you fix the tray to just fit, then a slightly larger size won't fit well into the tray. One company changed the lids on the size I like; the new lids were higher (which was alright as I had allowed enough space in the larger containers), and besides the lids were often loose, necessitating taping a "hinge" on the back to keep them from falling off! It is hard to find the same quality over the years, so buying a Big supply, once you find what you want, may be useful.

The case for slightly larger boxes: You don't have to trim so much, which reduces disaster-losses. A slightly bigger specimen makes for more matrix which can be interesting. When you get second-hand specimens that you like, you can fit them into your box (whereas trying to get a larger specimen into a smaller box may be a lesson in footility). A slightly bigger box may be easier to pick up in the fingers. Just try to get a size that will be made for a while, and is convenient for your purpose.

30th Aug 2008 17:31 UTCDana Morong

Another hint: When buying boxes, be careful of the sizes, whether they are inside dimensions or outside dimensions. Some vendors fail to note whether inside or outside. I have seen one vender even use the two systems mixed! (when I got the results in the package!). In that case, I then had to buy about 10 samples (of what I didn't know), to see what size they really were (I didn't trust to phone and ask; some clerks can be sloppy about details that they don't understand), then buy a lot of the same stock number when I found what I wanted (the extra 10 or 20 of a different size can be used for other useful purposes, such as giving away spare specimens that are just too good).

30th Aug 2008 17:43 UTCDenise Bicknell

Thanks Dana, your point is well made! At the moment my mm collection is in a jumble of different sized boxes obtained through trades. Other specimens are wrapped in tissue and stored in tiny zip-lock baggies with a catalog number, mineral name, and locality slip included. I decided it was high time to come to a decision on a box-type and make everything as cohesive as possible. Besides messing with the tiny baggies is a pain! I like a bigger box as they allow for matrix to be included. I don't know if it will ever be totally cohesive due to size of matrix and xl aggregates - I just can't stand to ruin some xls in the name of trimming to fit a box. Thankfully there aren't too many in my collection like that.

Do you use liners? If you do what is it that you like about them?

31st Aug 2008 10:21 UTCMalcolm Southwood 🌟 Expert

Steve

I didnt know we could get these locally. Can you let me have the details?

Thanks

mal

1st Sep 2008 11:49 UTCSteve Sorrell Expert

Hi Mal

Mike Barkla produces them. He lives in Eaglehawk so I hope to catch up with him when I go to the Bendigo Show. He won't be at the show but he lives nearby.

Regards

Steve

4th Sep 2008 00:10 UTCDana Morong

Yes, I use black paper liners (I cut them out myself, a lot at a time, stacked in storage). I like them because the pedestal can be glued (or stuck, if using thin mineral-tack) to the liner. Then again, when the lid is on, the specimen won't move, but when lid off the specimen can be taken out. Also, I like to put a label with at least minimal information onto the back of the liner (number refers to catalog for more info); helps find it if nothing else. Then again I like liners because I don't like gluing into a box (I have had too many second-hand specimens - from others - glued into boxes, not always the best side up, that were very difficult to remove for proper mounting without ruining the specimen). If I err, I can at least try again. I like to leave room to correct my errors!

5th Sep 2008 03:10 UTCRoy Wood

Hi Denise,

I have seen two different styles discussed in here but attached is a photo of a lot of different options. When trading micromounts I often get a specimen mounted in a different style of box. Attached is a photo of twelve different boxes I found but there may be more. The one you are looking at has the advantage of price and being able to mount the specimen on the shallow black bottom giving you more freedom in viewing the specimen under the scope. The plastic is thin, too thin for a ham handed guy like me. The one in the photo even has a small crack but I doubt if you could see it in this photo.

The only problem with adding different sized boxes to the collection is that the rows are not always straight. I do not always remount from a new box but try and save at least one for future reference.

Let us know which one you end up with.

Regards, Roy

10th Sep 2008 17:57 UTCDenise Bicknell

I ordered the boxes and they arrived today. As y'all said they are rather thin but I do love the size and clean lines of these boxes. The order was made on Friday Aug. 28 late in the evening on the website and they arrived on Wed. Sept 10 on the 7th business day (we had a 3 day weekend in this time frame). I received an email telling me they had been shipped - I liked that too. All in all I am very pleased with the order process and the appearance of the boxes. Now comes the fun and time-consuming process of mounting 500 specimens! We shall see how I like the boxes after that...

10th Sep 2008 18:14 UTCJim Ferraiolo

There's that fine line between being a micromounter and collecting micro specimens.

Micromounters have a sense of "carpentry" as Jules Bernhardt used to call it, and it's a permanent mount. If you do what could be considered a 'temporary' mount (mineral tack, for example), you're a micro collector. No matter.

In reference to boxes and box sizes, Neal Yedlin always said to fit the box to the specimen, not the specimen to the box.

10th Sep 2008 18:37 UTCDenise Bicknell

Hi Jim, I like Neal's idea to fit the box to the specimen but I also want some uniformity so decided to go with a larger box size. I think some of the smaller pieces will be lost in a big box but it is what it is. Same-size boxes allow for neater storage.

I've been toying with the idea of taking the metal part of a black push pin out of the head and gluing the push pin head to the box and the specimen to the push pin head for larger specimens. I haven' t tried to see how the tack will come out yet so not sure if that is what I will end up doing. I've not come up with an idea for single xls or tiny groups yet. Corks and balsa have been mentioned already; do y'all have any other ideas?

10th Sep 2008 22:12 UTCSven Bailey

We've used blackened cactus needles in the past. Course they may be hard to come by in other climates! Toothpicks could be cut and whittled down as well (going to be hard to avoid some carpentry though). Has anyone experimented with other materials? Painted monofilament line or fine wire might work too...

Sven

10th Sep 2008 22:31 UTCJon Mommers

Hi Denise,

try hair brush bristles (glued into a balsa base), normally matt black and they come in a range of thicknesses. I have seen the filaments on rubber mats used, appear to work well and are often easier to cut than wood I believe.

Jon

11th Sep 2008 00:04 UTCRod Martin Expert

Hi Denise

Was a long time user of the hinged boxes from Gary Plastics at ~$80/1000 for 2000 or more. Even with the rate of exchange and shipping to NZ they still ended up at just under 25c each (~18c US). Unfortunately they now only airfreight overseas so the price is now 60-70c NZ each!!!

I've been sourcing Chinese made boxes similar to the European slip on boxes but heavier walled and get them in Bangkok for 20 baht (~65c US)/12 pieces. Again shipping to NZ more than doubles the price but they still end up $2 NZ/12 (~$1.40 US).

As they only come in clear cases I cut strips of black paper to the internal size of the box and then insert two strips at right angles to each other into the box with a drop of glue between - this removes the need (and cost) of pre-cut liners or the tedious job of cutting them out.

Have included an image of the boxes but you should also note that I've ended up with supplies from 3 different manufacturers and 2 measure 29x29x22 (int 25x25x17) and the other 29x29x24 (int 25x25x20).

Rod

11th Sep 2008 19:31 UTCJohannes Swarts

Hi,

See attached doc - from when I used to edit the MicroMounters of New England newsletter. I have been able to mount anywhere from 25 to 50 specimens in an evening, assuming all were trimmed, cleaned, oriented, etc.

I still have several thousand that need the carpentry applied - then there are the flats of untrimmed material - then the 5 gallon buckets that have barely been examined...

Hans

Drat - can't attach a Word doc???

A FAIRLY FAST MOUNTING TECHNIQUE

I currently have a backlog of several hundred specimens sitting lose in their hinged boxes, waiting to be mounted. This is a task I've never looked forward to - lots of finicky work for clumsy fingers? Some hobbyists use little blobs of the mineral tack or putty to render the specimens immobile (it keeps the piece from rattling about and bruising the interesting stuff). Personally, I prefer the specimen mounted on an unobtrusive pedestal and the interior of the box blackened. Mounted this way, the specimen seems to float in space under the 'scope and reduces annoying glare from the shiny interior of plastic boxes. Some micromounts in my collection have black paper liners in a slip-top box with the tiny rock fitting on an all-but invisible pedestal - truly exquisite work! However, the thought of cutting and sizing those little bits of paper...

In mounting a number of specimens for the trade with the California club, I came up with an assembly-line method that allowed me to mount 40 or so specimens in rapid order. I use the I x I x 7/8 inch hinged box with clear top and black base. Further supplies include:

1. Small corks (probably ½ inch or so in length), tapering to one end. Or balsa wood stock ¼ inch or less square.

2. Duco Cement or its equivalent (some use Elmer's for its solubility in water).

3. India ink.

4. A hobbyist's or model maker's saw - long rectangular blade, finely serrated on one edge. The blade on mine is 4 ½ x ¾ inches in size).

5. Exacto blade - the holder and the blades.

6. Flat black modeler's paint, acrylic, which cleans up with water. (The pigment in this paint is extremely fine-grained, giving a very flat appearance and application by brush is less messy than spray paint).

7. Small paint brushes

The small corks and Duco Cement can be found in hardware or drug stores, while the other materials can be found in a good hobby supply store. Let's start with the pedestal material first. If the little corks are available, dump a bunch of them in a small jar and pour in enough India ink to evenly wet (and blacken) all the corks. India ink is preferable for this step, as it is easily available and dries quickly to a very flat black. When all the corks are black decant off the excess India ink and spread then out on newspaper to dry. Balsa stock can be cut quickly to ½ inch or so lengths with the modeler's saw and treated similarly. The point here is to make the pedestals black.

While the pedestals are drying, take the plastic micro boxes and, using the Exacto blade, scribe a series of crisscrossing lines in the interior of the center of the base on each box. This roughens the area where the pedestal will later be glued, affording the glue a better ‘grip’. Once the pedestals have dried thoroughly (solvent-based glues don't adhere well to moist things), start gluing the pedestals into the boxes. I find that a small dollop of glue applied to both the roughened area in the box and the base of the pedestal, then allowed to dry for twenty seconds or so, makes for a quick tight bond. Press the pedestal firmly into the box for 10 seconds, then set aside. A large number of boxes can be prepared very quickly in this manner. Allow the glue to set and harden thoroughly.

Once the glue has dried, use a small brush to paint the interior of the micro box base with the flat black modeler's paint. This can be done with a few quick strokes of the brush. Little attention need be paid to the vertical sides of the base, as they are scarcely visible with normal viewing angles under the 'scope. Set the boxes aside to dry thoroughly. Small unblackened spots on the pedestal and the glue joint can also be touched up at this point.

Any number of micro boxes can be prepared in this fashion and kept on hand. Now we are ready to begin mounting. Since my specimens have already been trimmed to fit a micro box and hopefully cleaned, it's simply a matter of orienting the specimen and gluing it onto the pedestal. Always try to pick the most unobtrusive, yet strongest support when sizing the pedestal to the specimen. If the specimen appears to be to 'tall' to fit (this can be checked by eyeballing the specimen next to a box with a pedestal), I gently saw off a portion of the pedestal with the modeler's saw. Sawing at an angle or making a 'V' cut into the top of the pedestal can accommodate specimens with irregular or angled bottoms. Be sure to gently blow off or otherwise remove the resultant sawdust before proceeding. Having a variety of pedestal diameters or cross-sections affords even the smallest rock an unobtrusive mount. Certainly, very small or single crystal mounts may be better displayed on pedestals consisting of toothpicks, porcupine quills, or even cactus needles or cat's whiskers. Some things to remember. Everything looks much bigger under the microscope, including oversized pedestals and errant droplets or hairs of dried glue. A dirty paintbrush can leave specks of dust embedded in the paint used to blacken the box interior, specks of sawdust can also clutter the view and even dirty the specimen. Have fun and don't forget to label the box!

21st Sep 2008 01:36 UTCRoy Wood

Hi,

Besides the plastic boxes there is another option. The attached photo shows how suites of minerals can be gathered in one spot. In this case what the lid of this box has is trade material. The minerals are glued either to a cork or balsa peg then the specimen, along with its label, is pushed down on a thumb tack that comes through the bottom of the box. This was an old xmas card box and both the top and bottom has minerals, with a total capacity of about sixty micros. I have used smaller boxes to store those unknowns that we all seem to find.

Roy

22nd Sep 2008 01:03 UTCDenise Bicknell

Thanks for everyone's replies. Your help was invaluable and very much appreciated.

22nd Sep 2008 03:01 UTCRobert Rothenberg

I have been micromounting for about 40 years, and really like the liners for several reasons. First, the pedestal sticks to the liner much better than to the plastic. If you drop a mount that has been affixed to the plastic, it often shears off at the base. This rarely happens with the liners. Second, I put my labels between the box and the liner. This keeps the labels from abrading (on the bottom of the box) or becoming separated from the specimen (if it is on the lid). Third, one can remove the liner from the box and get different viewing angles than if it remains permanently mounted in the box. I like them so much that I have taken to making liners for the larger boxes that I sometimes use (I mostly use 7/8 x 7/8 x 3/4 micro boxes).

14th Oct 2008 05:09 UTCRod Martin Expert

Just got a quote in from a micro box supplier in Bangkok
Plastic boxes.

Excluding freight charges, transparent boxes 31 x 31 x 20 mm @ 5c US each and coloured boxes @ 6c US each. But you need to order a full container for this price (1,165,248 boxes).

Note that this works out to 20.6 Baht/doz and I manage to buy the same boxes from local shops for 21.2 Baht/doz for orders in excess of 1,000 boxes

Rod

14th Oct 2008 10:15 UTCSteve Sorrell Expert

About $100,000AU for those nice green ones Rod! Hmmmm....no.

15th Oct 2008 08:38 UTCRod Martin Expert

Believe me Steve it looks worse in Kiwi dollars and goes up daily!!! Will try and get some of the coloured ones next time I'm in Bangkok though.

Rod

ps Good luck with the Seminar, wish I could be attending.

15th Oct 2008 11:47 UTCSteve Sorrell Expert

Thanks Rod. It should be a good seminar. Somewhere around 80 or so registered.

Must be nearly time for your Symposium. Doesn't seem like 12 months since Waihi Beach!

16th Oct 2008 08:49 UTCRod Martin Expert

Leave on Sun for 3 days tramping (trekking) in the Hurunui Ranges, Canterbury then on to Cromwell for a day of gold panning before the Symposium starts. Looking to cover my petrol cost! Should be a good meeting this year, I'll be able to sit back and enjoy it all. Have 3 overseas collectors passing through NZ in the next couple of months , is a pity that they didn't realise the Symposium dates as they all will miss it. Perhaps we should follow up Henry's request and ensure that we all enter our meetings in the Mindat directory.

Rod

15th Dec 2008 01:22 UTCTom Trebisky

Well, I use the "classic" Althor style boxes. I suppose that I was influenced by Speckles book at an early age.

Early on I was using black boxes with clear lids, but I dropped that idea the first time I saw a really extensive

micro collection. With drawers and drawers of boxes, reading labels was much much more useful than squinting

as some piece of micro material through clear plastic. I have found a better source of the Althor style boxes than

Althor, I believe FLS enterprises (Fred Stohl) now sells a box of the same dimension that I have found to be higher

quality. I do use the paper liners (and buy them from Althor). I agree with Mr. Rothenburg that a pedestal glued to

a paper liner is far more sturdy than one glued to shiny plastic (perhaps with a film of a release agent to make things

even worse). However I have seen superb mounts from a large collection mounted directly in shiny boxes without

liners or painting and frankly I think that works just fine once you have the glue worked out (he uses cyanoacrylate).

I use white glue (weldbond from Ace hardware in my case) and find it an excellent glue. I haven't touched Duco in

years.

30th Dec 2008 09:43 UTCRay Hill Expert

I like Althor boxes and paper liners , like Tom does, and I will track down this FLS enterprises , if their boxes will accept the Althor liners, since I haven't found any other supplier yet, for liners as good as those from Althor..

What is the quantity needed to get a good price, Tom?

I have been reduced to ordering in lots of 500 or 1000 to get a reasonable price and that represents a lot of micromounting before the next order....

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