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Identity HelpLinsenboerming(sp?) from Schneeberg

21st Jul 2006 18:55 UTCJohn Magnasco Manager

Hello All:

Anyone out there recognize this as some antiquated name for a mineral or mixture of minerals? I have a specimen which came out of a museum in Austria with a pre-1900 label with what looks like "Linsenboerming, Schneeberg" written on it.

The specimen consists of rich native bismuth disseminated in what appears to be a white/silvery-colored sulfide, perhaps skutterudite or something similar.

Any help would be appreciated!

Thanks,

John

21st Jul 2006 20:58 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

I see some "linsenfoermiger thoneisenstein" as a synonym for limonite. Looks like it might refer to some kind of habit.

23rd Jul 2006 11:51 UTCErik Vercammen

(A native-German-speaker may coreect this)

"linsenformiger"= lenticular

"thoneisenstein"= clay-iron-stone; I suppose these are "pelosiderites", concretions in claylayers (between coalseams) made of a mixture of siderite, clay, tec.

25th Jul 2006 02:30 UTCJohn Magnasco Manager

Hello David & Eric:

Thank you for the responses. It seems reasonable that "Linsenboerming" is probably Linsenfoermig and is probably in reference to lenticular masses of this bismuth-sulfide mix. It certainly is not, at least in this case, either limonite or a pelosiderite.

Does the Bismuth disseminated in silvery/white sulfide ore ring a bell for anyone. I'll try to post a pic of the rock and label as well.

Thanks,

John

28th Jul 2006 21:56 UTCClaus Hedegaard

John,

Which minerals are named in the label? Can you post a picture of the label - 19th Century German names often differ from what we are used to now. Back then it would be unthinkable for a mineralogist not to be fluent in German!

The Schneeberg Bismuth occurs in the Bi-Co-Ni formation. Ramdohr, Paul. 1980. The ore minerals and their intergrowths, 2nd ed. Vol. 1, p. 380 mentions a.o. the following associate minerals of Bi from this type of deposit: Smaltite, Safflorite, Löllingite, Breithauptite and Uraninite.

Claus

31st Jul 2006 17:31 UTCJohn Magnasco Manager

Hello Claus!

Good to here from you. Hope all is well and you are enjoying your summer. This is a piece that I purchased from Dennis Tanjeloff. It allegedly came from a museum collection in Austria dating back pre-1900.

I was trying to dig the piece out of the black hole over the weekend, but just didn't find the time. I'll see if I can find it tonight and wil snap a shot or two of the sample and the labels.

I bet you're chomping at the bit to get out and do some field collecting...aren't you????!

Cheers,

John

1st Aug 2006 06:24 UTCJohn Magnasco Manager

Pic of specimen of Bismuth xls embedded in sulfides

1st Aug 2006 06:26 UTCJohn Magnasco Manager

Pic of labels with specimen and labels from same collection

2nd Aug 2006 22:26 UTCClaus Hedegaard

Hi John,

Yes, my hammer is REALLY itching to go out and collect but I guess I wont do that much this year either. Next year ... Doing fine unpacking collection, app. 95% done & will soon review what I wish to keep and what not.

Label:

Your label (the big one) reads:

Linsenfoermig X.

Hornstein von

Schneeberg

4 Poer. ... gr. l 16 ...

I do not believe this label goes with the specimen. The one saying '146. Schneeberg ... ' may, though. No problems with ID/locality of specimen - I believe in Bismuth from Schneeberg.

Possible interpretations:

1) The label describes a 'LinsenfÃ¶rmig' (lenticular) X (crystal), equivalent to 'Hornstein'. Using one X for a crystal would be unusual, but the old alchemist symbol for Quartz is XX, so it may refer to a lenticular Quartz 'crystal' (chunk, more like it). 'Hornstein' is an antique term for Chalcedony/Jasper and a few other things (Hintze's "Handbuch der Mineralogie" also mentions it as a rare term for Hornblende). Apart from Hintze I checked Doelter, Cornelio 1912-1931, "Handbuch der mineralchemie", LÃ¼schen, Hans, 1979, "Die Namen der Steine. Das Mineralreich im Spiegel der Sprache" and a few standard references (without luck) and they mention 'Hornstein' as a term for (cryptocrystalline) Quartz (LÃ¼schen adds 'odd bulk rock'). I believe the label goes with a lenticular, cryptocrystalline Quartz (e.g., Agate).

2) The 'X' is an old alchymist symbol. These varied considerably and some referring to copper might have been simplified to an 'X' in hand writing, though others could be as well. In that case I would interpret the label as 'lenticular ??? ore in cryptocrystalline Quartz'. That does not correspond to your specimen either.

I have not been able to find any reference linking the term 'Hornsstein' to an ore mineral.

I believe the lower, somewhat cryptic, line is a reference to a book. I can not decipher it, but it would probably be abbreviated name of author (Poe.) and then reference to the systematics/groups of that book. If somebody more familiar with classic mineralogy books can decipher this, you may get an idea which mineral the label refers to.

The smaller label, reading 146. Schneeberg, 12. gr. may (or may not) go with the specimen. Note the handwriting is different but similar (app. same time), but it refers to a 'group 12' and the other label to a 'group 1 ... subgroup ???' also suggesting the two labels are for different specimens.

Claus

4th Aug 2006 21:54 UTCClaus Hedegaard

I was just reading an article by Hans-GÃ¼nther Penndorf (2006) on Calcite & Whewellite from Dresden (Lapis, 31(2), 13-22). He writes about Hornstein (my translation):

The miners designate silicic rock, similar to flint, unstructured or fine lamellar, and of reddish, yellowish-brown or blackish colour "Hornstein" (derived from cow's horn)

Claus

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