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GeneralCrystal models

8th Sep 2005 08:34 UTCOT. Ljostad

The famous German company Kranz sold wooden crystal models a century ago. A complete set consisted of more that 700 different models! These original models are of course VERY expensive, and even if you have a lot of money to spend, you would have problems getting a complete set.

Is there anybody who knows if it is possible to buy crystal models in plastic? If it is not possible, someone should start making some. I am quite sure that good quality plastic models with indicies would sell well.

11th Sep 2005 22:42 UTCSaul Krotki

Hi OT,

I presented a small set of resin plastic crystal models on the main floor of the Tucson show some twenty years ago. Rubber molds for these models were made from original Kranz wood models. The crystals sold for approximately $30 each in the sets. They were far more difficult to finish than anticipated. Each and every face had to be sanded and polished by hand after it was pulled from the mold. It was an agonizing process.

I had a giant complete Rhodesian Alamandine crystal which I invested in rubber mold. Then added deep red dye to match the original when to the plastic was poured into the mold. (This was the very same high luster plastic as used in automobile tail lenses.) As it happened, the chlorite texture on the garnet surface preserved perfectly in the final model. I contributed some similar textured tinted models of various single crystals to a case that Tony Kampt put together of mineral fakes for an LA County museum presentation.

One year in Tucson, in my Krotki Iron Mines motel room at the Desert Inn, I put the dark red plastic garnet next to the real garnet that the model was derived from in a glass case. People argued about which was the real one. After a while, I was not sure myself.

Fake Benitoite fooled no one as the original wood model was one thousand times the size of any known crystal.

I had to give my fake red beryl to Rex Harris after I dipped it in pink clay and pulled it on him in his mine in the Wah Wah Range in Utah nearly leaving him in a coma! Hmmm....how I regret these transgressions of youth!

Smooth surfaces were the problem. But I kept polishing. Then a very strange thing happened that changed the course of the plastic crystal model business. The models at the LA County museum caught the eye of Michael Douglas who was making a movie called “Romancing the Stone.” He needed one tinted fake butterfly twin emerald that would look good in the day light and another emerald optimized for artificial light. Wow!, a $60 order, I thought with delight.

As it was the basic model making budget for the movie work was $3000! So ended the business of polishing $30 crystal models!

My very best wishes to the next person who takes on this project. Prepare for laboratory safety and ventilation. Methylene chloride is bound to be found in the solvents. Toxic is too gentle an expression. The chemical can be fatal!

12th Sep 2005 18:22 UTCIan

I've been after a set of models for years. Unfortunately, they are scarcer than hen's teeth to find. The odd model (wood, plaster etc) can be found at shows.

As far as current commercial sources go, try:

www.krantz-online.de/sid/443eaf9723d5be44fa422027ca3cc24d/en/sortiment.php?sorter=67&start=0

Expensive though.

If you do manage to locate another source please let me know.

Good luck,

Ian

12th Sep 2005 19:15 UTCDavid Von Bargen

For a more modest set for the origami minded.

Wards

http://www.wardsci.com/product.asp_Q_pn_E_130550_A_Crystal+Model+Construction+Advanced+Set

12th Sep 2005 20:21 UTCOT. Ljostad

I had hoped that somebody had used a 3-dimentional crystal drawing program on a PC to make inexpensive, indexed, clear plastic models of crystals. I am quite sure it is possible to use a 3-dimentional PC-drawing for making the different molds for making the crystal models. If I had had more money I would have made plastic models...

The Krantz models are too few and too expensive (and not avaiable).

Some years ago one of the German mineral magazines had some paper models. I have 15 - 20 of them, but they are a little too big, and they do not cover all the crystal classes.

I think I will order the 101 paper-models from Wards.

13th Sep 2005 05:01 UTCAlan Plante

An old friend of mine, now deceased, was involved in scientific model making. I asked him about crystal class models and he looked into it - both to see who might be supplying them, if anyone, and to see what might be involved in producing them if no suppliers turned up. His reply was that it appeared they were not in sufficient demand to bring the price down so few companies tackled them - and those only catering to labs and universities and such that could afford the high cost of such limited production merchandise. As for making a set for me himself, he quoted me a price of around $10,000 - since it would be prototype models with no expectation of going into production due to lack of market.

I still don't have a set.

:~}

Alan

13th Sep 2005 10:26 UTCPete Nancarrow

When I was studying crystallography, one of the practical exercises given to help our understanding of stereographic projection, was to carve our own crystal models from chalk using the stereogram to orient the faces. Fun and helpful up to a point, and farly easy for simple isometric forms, but much too labourious for making a full set of models for every crystal class or complex combinations of forms.

Pete N.

14th Sep 2005 14:17 UTCLM

Interesting... My old school had a set like that one from Krantz, but a bit older (1874). I don't know who made it...

I didn't realized that they were so rare!

14th Sep 2005 21:54 UTCMark Holtkamp

Interesting discussion! I have considered making these models, but never followed through. I had no idea if there would be a high enough demand for them.

But I do believe it is possible to make these cheaper than sold by Krantz (and Alan's $10,0000). I'll do a bit of research.

Mark H.

www.smorf.nl

18th Mar 2006 11:53 UTCClaudia Florian

I am a gemologist consultant for Bonhams & Butterfields Auctioneers. I have a collection of 53 leaded glass crystal models which Krantz produced in the 1880s as a special order which I am offering for sale in out June 4th, Natural History auction in Los Angeles. The estimate will be US$12,000/15,000.

Can anyone shed any light as to why the set would have been ordered in leaded glass as opposed to the typical wood?

Claudia F.

18th Mar 2006 15:27 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager

Why do people buy Rolex watches instead of Timex ones?

18th Mar 2006 17:48 UTCjohan

first of all - are these crystal models or are they models of cut gemstones(diamonds)? the latter would be a good reason to make them into glass!

second - the reflectance of leaded glass is higher than normal glass, isn't it? thus it would increase the similarity to transparent stones.

three - if it truly is crystal models - the answer could be lying in what mineral they are mimicing - perhaps transparent quartz, i.e. rock crystal?

where does the info about 1880's and "special order" come from?

cheers

29th Mar 2006 16:54 UTCDon Peck

A substitute, perhaps not as satisfying as wood or as flashy as plastic or glass, is paper. The program KRISTALL 2000 lets one design the three dimensional crystal given the crystal system, axial ratio, and indices of the forms. The size of each form may be adjusted and then a program function shows the flat pattern for a paper model, which can be sent to the printer.

When carefully assembled, the models are pretty good.

15th Jun 2006 07:00 UTCLengo

Hmmm. perhaps somewone will eventually make computer models of the various basic types, like pyramidal, bytroidal, etc. That at least would be a good learning tool. Or, does such a thing already exist?

16th Jun 2006 12:40 UTCBrian E. Gray

Hello Don! Where can I get Kristall 2000? Share ware? Cost? I'm interested for teaching purposes.

Brian

Downeast

17th Jun 2006 14:42 UTCDon Peck

Hello Brian,

Try http://www.mdat-coll.de/download.htm There is a demo version that you can download. And you will get information on purchasing it. The address given on the About dialog window is:

Klaus Schilling

Kiefernweg 8

D - 67346 Speyer

+49/ (0)6232-33791

Last I knew, the price was $200.00

Don

19th Jun 2006 12:31 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Cut and fold crystal models (free PDF):

http://homepage.univie.ac.at/karolina.schwendtner/Testmin/Ausschneidebogen.pdf

1st Oct 2010 06:11 UTCJohn Worden

Crystal models produced in quantity for educational purposes would give young minds the capability to discover new locations of minerals &

gems and would include education of amature collectors.

19th Nov 2010 12:06 UTCMark Holtkamp

Hi all,

I took a while.. but here are some plastic crystal models :)

19th Nov 2010 16:16 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Very nice Mark!!! Now do you think Krantz was overpriced? I can only hope there would be demand for these.

20th Nov 2010 09:18 UTCMark Holtkamp

Hi Rob,

A set of models in white plastic (as on the first picture) would cost less then half the price of the Krantz models. Smaller models are cheaper, the Kranz set of 12 models in the size of 3 - 4 cm would cost about 50 dollars. But I don't know if the Krantz models are overpriced, they look nice and perhaps require a lot of handwork.

Mark.

13th Jul 2011 14:02 UTCJohn Blendell

Has anyone found a source for the wooden crystal models? I have used them for teaching, but can not find a set to buy. I have ordered a set of 30 from Krantz, but they no longer have the larger sets available. I have not been able to find them even on auction sites either. Any help is appreciated.

13th Jul 2011 16:13 UTCJohan Kjellman Expert

they are scarce, but you can find them on and off

see for example this lot sold at christies recently: http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/lot_details.aspx?intObjectID=5421465

and here another small lot, apparently available: http://cgi.ebay.com/Mineralogische-Kristallmodelle-historisch-/310241556117?pt=Wissenschaftliche_Ger%C3%A4te_1&hash=item483bd67695

cheers

13th Jul 2011 17:04 UTCDonald Peck

About 50 years ago, I made some wooden models from clear pine wood. I used the interfacial angle tables from Dana's System, 6th edition. Set the blade tilt and miter angle on my table saw to the corresponding angles and cut them out. Using the same angles with a sanding disk on the arbor to finish the faces. AND . . . I still have all ten fingers. It worked, but I strongly do not recommend the method. However, using a small-part cutting sled with the piece clamped in place . . . .

13th Jul 2011 21:27 UTCJohn A. Jaszczak Expert

We could get a whole set made by 3D printing. Unfortunately I don't know how much 3D printing costs.

Here is a fun youtube video of printing a working wrench.
3D printing of working wrench

14th Jul 2011 08:25 UTCMark Holtkamp

The cost of 3D printing depends on the printing technique, material and size of the model. A 5 - 6 cm model in nylon would cost about 10 dollars. Send me a PM if you are interested.

Mark.

14th Jul 2011 09:59 UTCRock Currier Expert

I don't think anyone makes wood models today because of how time intensive it is and the very limited market for them. Perhaps someone in China retired from their giant government earth science establishment will take up the work some day. In our gem and mineral society there was an old guy who used to make them out of the wood from pear trees. He made them on a table saw that had a special angle setting tool that he made. He said the trick was to use a very sharp blade, which he specially sharpened himself to make the cuts. I asked how he managed to get the wood surfaces so flat and almost polished looking and he told me that if your blade was really sharp and your cuts clean that the surfaces had an almost polished look to them and no further finishing was needed.

14th Jul 2011 15:29 UTCDonald Peck

Rock, the trick is to keep your fingers away from the blade when cutting small pieces!

15th Jul 2011 10:49 UTCRock Currier Expert

Hmm! Keep you fingers away from a sharp spinning blade? What a novel idea!

15th Jul 2011 12:57 UTCPaul Turner

Sounds like it would be cheaper just to buy minerals specimens exhibiting these habits.

1st Aug 2011 08:03 UTChawa

Hi Mark

Are you selling those models? I need a set for teaching purposes.

7th Aug 2011 22:53 UTCMark Holtkamp

Hi hawa,

Yes you can get them here: shapeways . As of yet the number of models there is limited, send me a message if you need something else.

Mark.

21st Aug 2011 00:46 UTCCharles Creekmur Expert

Here is another set of unidentified crystal models. I got these in a trade back in the late 1950's or early 60's. The set consists of 64 cast aluminum models (the drawer partitions are just over 2 inches across). All are not shown here as 10 are in another drawer. About a dozen of them are in two pieces so you can rotate them to demonstrate twinning. There is a number (1 through 64) stamped or molded into each one but no other identifying marks. I got these, a gieger counter, several flats of mineral specimens and about a pound of topaz facet rough for a .38 cal hex barrel saddle rifle that was rusted and pitted. I think "I got the gold mine and he got the shaft" . If anybody can shed any light on the origin of this set I would appreciate your comments.

Charles Creekmur

29th Aug 2011 04:36 UTCDana Slaughter 🌟 Expert

I love those aluminum models Charles.....and the many fine photos of hard-to-get specimens

that you've posted here on mindat! Thanks for sharing.

11th Sep 2011 20:22 UTCChuck Hobart

I have a collection of wooden crystals that received 25 years ago from a friend that worked at Los Alamos. All he said was they were used on the Manhattan project. Any input would be valuable.

Thanks,

Chuck

14th Sep 2011 08:00 UTCRock Currier Expert

Send us a picture.

6th Dec 2011 05:11 UTCLeah

We have three sets of the wooden blocks from germany in our mineralogy classroom. Each is a set of 30. I have been looking for a set I can keep at home to study but to no avail. I am a college student, not a collector and can't afford these things. Wish I was good at woodworking so I could make myself a set!

6th Dec 2011 22:00 UTCDean Allum Expert

Leah,

With a small effort, you can make your own crystal models from paper. The general idea is to download a template from the internet which shows the outline and fold locations. You print this out, cut along the outline, and glue the tabs when needed to form a 3 dimensional crystal model.

Here are two of several internet sites containing the templates:

http://www.korthalsaltes.com/

http://webmineral.com/help/Forms.shtml

I found it easiest to use cardstock paper with a glue-gun for faster construction. It would be nice to have 4 hands during the gluing phase. (111) Miller indices labels are optional :-)

regards,

Dean Allum

7th Dec 2011 15:46 UTCDonald Peck

Dean, I just looked at the two websites you listed and I am impressed. I have designed and made a lot of paper crystal models. Your suggestion of using cardstock is right-on.

Another suggestion is: before cutting the model from the sheet of cardstock, place the face of the sheet against a window and with a straightedge and a ballpoint pen, trace over all the fold lines. Use a moderate pressure. This helps to get crisp folds at all the edges.

And think about the order of pasting glue tabs before you start in order to keep the final ones as easy as possible.

18th Jul 2014 14:46 UTCJacques Chabot

Hi every body. I have a wooden crystal model collection, a set of 50, from Dr. F. Krantz, with a description of each model. It is like new. Do you have an idea of the value? Thanks.

18th May 2016 20:09 UTCJ Crosbie

I have ten wooden crystal models to sell , can anyone give me a price range for them.i seem to be missing # 2 and # 8.

They are numbered with the word Germany below.

Thank you,

Jo

18th May 2016 21:19 UTCErik Vercammen Expert

New wooden models from the firma Krantz: https://www.krantz-online.de/en/online-shop/___product/1951/___showCat/43/___pageid/16/wooden-crystal_models_-_collection.html I suppose these models are from Krantz.

21st Feb 2019 19:56 UTCLloyd Alexander

Anything new out there for sets in 2019?

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