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Improving Mindat.orgUnusual/questionable ? Strunzite.

29th Oct 2006 11:30 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Stephan Wolfsried has added 3 photos of alleged Strunzite in stout, prismatic crystals very unlike the usual habit for Strunzite. The photos 0519730001/08853120011 and 099913060011 seem to come from the same specimen. Strunzite is triclinic and these crystals seem to be of a higher symmetry. From many other localities I would have guessed they were Cerussites. But this mineral is not listed from Hagendorf neither in mindat nor in the book by Kastning and Schlüter. But since Galene has been found in the Hagendorf pegmatite, the presence of also Cerussite cannot be excluded. It would be interesting to know have these crystals have been identified.

Knut

29th Oct 2006 17:28 UTCStephan Wolfsried Expert

Knut,

You are right, those xls are quite unusual for Strunzite. They are pseudohexagonal, but I am pretty sure that they are really Strunzite.

Cerussite isn't possible, since there have been no lead minerals at all in the Cornelia found ever.

Stephan

29th Oct 2006 20:05 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Stephan,

It is hard to imagine for a triclinic mineral to make such pseudohexagonal crystals. But it is easy to understand i.e. for an orthorhombic mineral. Therefore if you only have a visual identification of this mineral as "Strunzite", I very much doubt the identity.

"Galena" is listed in mindat having been found at the Hagendorf Süd pegmatite so I am not sure about your statement that no lead minerals have been found there.

Is the ID as "Strunzite" only based on a visual identification ??

Knut

30th Oct 2006 07:15 UTCStephan Wolfsried Expert

Knut,

I don't know who stated that galena occurs at Cornelia mine. It doesn't.

The xls aren't analyzed, I had no need because when You see it there is no doubt for an experienced Cornelia collector that this is Strunzite. Believe it or not.

Stephan

30th Oct 2006 07:38 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

The reference listed in mindat for Galena from Hagendorf Süd/Cornelia mine is Berthold Weber.

Knut

30th Oct 2006 07:55 UTCStephan Wolfsried Expert

Knut,

have a look there:

http://www.berthold-weber.de/hagendorf/h_miner.htm

Also Berthold states, that Galena only occurs "erzmikroskopisch" I don't know the term in english, but that means there is no macroscopic Galena. The person who copied that into mindat didn't mention that. If You have a look on Bertholds mineral list You will easily see, that there is no one single lead mineral at Cornelia at all.

Berthold and me had a discussion about a questionable Fourmarierite from Cornelia, and he heavily refused that this could be possible due to the lead content. Later Uwe Kolitsch confirmed that as Uranosphaerite.

So once again: This is NOT Cerussite.

Stephan

30th Oct 2006 08:04 UTCPeter Haas

Knut,

At Hagendorf, galena has been found only as microscopic blebs in polished sections. According to (Ref.: Kastning & Schlüter, Die Mineralien von Hagendorf und ihre Bestimmung).

Peter

30th Oct 2006 09:02 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Stephan and Peter,

Thanks for the clarifying information. I have no problem accepting it is not Cerussite. But with some decades of experience studying "secondary" minerals from phosphate-pegmatites I still believe it is quite unusual. Even a new species cannot be excluded.

Knut

30th Oct 2006 09:19 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Hi Stephan,

I also believe that this is not strunzite - the crystals in fact look quite like cerussite (what are the associated minerals?). You could sacrifice a crystal for an acid test.

Another thought: maybe this was a mixup of labels?

Feel free to send me a micromount or 2-3 xls for analysis.

30th Oct 2006 09:20 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

The links to the photos:

http://www.mindat.org/photo-32631.html

http://www.mindat.org/photo-48400.html

http://www.mindat.org/photo-48401.html

30th Oct 2006 16:40 UTCStephan Wolfsried Expert

Uwe,

You can have that specimen for analysis.

It is on limonitic matrix, no other minerals with that.

I will send it to You.

Cheers Stephan

30th Oct 2006 19:01 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Stephan and Uwe !

Thanks for having this specimen analyzed ! It is of great importance that informations and pictures entered in mindat are subject to a process of verification and continuous improvement. Confirming the identity is especially important when pictures show minerals in new and very unusual habits and colours since collectors will use mindat as a reference when trying visually to identify their own material. If these turn out to be Strunzites, it will make them the very best crystals of this mineral worthy of a small ptresentation i.e. in Lapis. If they should turn out to be Cerussites as one could suspect from just looking at the pictures, I agree that it is unlikely that Hagendorf Süd/Cornelia mine is the rigth locality. The limonitic matrix with no other associated phosphates could be consistent with a different locality. In such a case there may be other explanations than a wrong label. The specimen may even have been found at Hagendorf Süd/Cornelia mine - but introduced there inadvertently from i.e. the backpack of a collector having visited some other mine on a previous field trip.I have many times found "foreign" material introduced by collectors at frequently visited localities.

Knut

Knut

31st Oct 2006 08:57 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Hi guys.

As a phosphate lover, I have been following this interesting thread from a distance.Looking forward to the results!

Thanks indeed, Uwe and Stephan.

It would be a surprise to me too, to have it confirmed as strunzite...

6th Nov 2006 17:37 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Single-crystal study showed that the crystals are drillings of cerussite, with typical habit and striations.

I'll ask Berthold Weber if he knows about such cerussites from Hagendorf.

6th Nov 2006 18:20 UTCStephan Wolfsried Expert

I got this specimen together with a big Hagendorf collection which was sold. I assume, that this as Knut stated was brought from a collector to Hagendorf or was mixed up by the pre owner. I do not know him personally nor do I know who he is, because this was dealt by a trader. I stay with my doubts that this as it is now Cerussite might be really from Cornelia Mine.

So my apologies for listing a wrong mineral at Cornelia, I will delete the photos immedeately. Those who got some of this material from me can give it back for refunding.

Thanks Uwe for clarification!

Stephan

8th Nov 2006 01:13 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Thank you to everyone - this is the sort of thing that shows mindat.org working at its best in terms of continual progress towards greater accuracy.

Stephan, I'm as disappointed as you no doubt are that these did not turn out to be Strunzite, but thank you anyway for posting the original photo, and thanks to Uwe for the work.

Jolyon

8th Nov 2006 17:30 UTCEddy Vervloet Manager

Thanks guys!

btw,

I stumbled upon a book about Hagendorf in Munich, by Jurgen Kastning and Jochen Schluter, no cerussite in there...

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