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EducationWhat does the ? behind the Rhodonite, mean.

20th Apr 2024 02:57 UTCGreg Dainty

I was wondering what the question mark behind the Rhodonite name in the list of minerals from  the Woods Rhodonite mine indicate?


20th Apr 2024 03:05 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

There's some doubt about the validity of the species, per the following:

"Fine grained. Analyses indicate vittinkiite (R Bottrill in prep)."

20th Apr 2024 03:44 UTCGreg Dainty

Unfortunately Mindat does not give a hardness for Vittinkiite.
 Its a little hard to believe that the thousands of tons of "rhodonite' that this mine produce , was all wrongly labeled. Its easier to believe that vittinkiite, does occur at this location,  to some extent. Is it possible to find out when Ralph made the notation, and if he has confirmed all "rhodonite" from the location is actualluy vittinkiite?

20th Apr 2024 04:35 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Greg Dainty  ✉️

 Its a little hard to believe that the thousands of tons of "rhodonite' that this mine produce , was all wrongly labeled.
 They weren't wrongly labelled, because it was indeed all "rhodonite" as then understood, before 2020 when vittinkiite was published and it became known that what we used to call "rhodonite" is in fact several different species.

20th Apr 2024 05:14 UTCGreg Dainty

01274550017135899065302.jpg
Thanks Alfredo, for the explanation.

So  do we now put a question mark behind all locations that rhodonite was previously identified  prior to 2020?  For example Broken Hill Domain has no question mark.

 I recently had a Woods mine specimen XRD tested. The identify of the gemmy bladed xls was confirmed as rhodonite. Does rhodonite as a singular mineral actually exist any more?

20th Apr 2024 05:48 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

See the page for rhodonite: still a valid species.

On the same page:
Some preliminary analyses indicate much material currently called rhodonite is actually vittinkiite, ferrorhodonite or pyroxmangite, and probably should be termed rhodonite group until analyzed. Most of these species are slightly darker than true rhodonite but chemical analysis and sometimes XRD is required for identification.  

20th Apr 2024 18:27 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

I recently had a Woods mine specimen XRD tested. The identify of the gemmy bladed xls was confirmed as rhodonite.
 XRD is insufficient to distinguish vittinkiite and rhodonite. (It also depends on what "standard" XRD pattern was used for the ID.)

20th Apr 2024 06:16 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

I've also analyzed "rhodonite" from the Woods mine, in my case as a minor constituent within the "ungarettiite"-amphibole assemblage, and also found it to be vittinkiite. The name-defining M5-cation site, which is Ca-dominant in rhodonite and Mn2+-dominant in vittinkiite, is here roughly M5(Mn2+0.70Ca0.29Na0.01). Of course, the occurrence of vittinkiite in this particular assemblage need not preclude the possible occurrence of more Ca-rich material, crossing into true rhodonite, in some other assemblage within the deposit, so it doesn't have to be an "either/or" situation... both could be present.

20th Apr 2024 08:14 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

It would be interesting to know more about the rhodonite group and how its members occur together or not, what kind of solid solutions there are between its members, etc.

Ideally, that kind of information should be on the rhodonite group page...

20th Apr 2024 10:33 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Yes, it would be interesting, not just for the rhodonite group minerals, but for all minerals. Extents of solid solutions between mineral family members in general is a thermodynamic consideration, and even where such work exists in the literature and is well-known (for example, certainly in simple groups like the rhombohedral carbonates, olivines, feldspars, etc.), mindat doesn't even attempt to tackle that. Leaving aside for the moment the more quantitative treatment required to characterize the extent of solid solution, an even more basic consideration would simply be a qualitative tabulation of the potential substitutions possible. But even that only gets limited coverage here, and primarily indirectly, as lists of "series" and "groups", where one still has to derive the exchange vectors themselves (and this only leads one to recognized end-members, not to hypothetical end-members that haven't been found in nature but nonetheless exist as minor components in natural material). There was a discussion last year to look at this more formally, but that discussion has been since forgotten.

20th Apr 2024 11:19 UTCGreg Dainty

Thank everybody, especially Frank, for his comments and observations.

  I forget to mention before.  Interestingly the pink material in the above specimen came back as amorphous, with XRD.

 I have arranged to have the specimen studied at a lab, re the amorphous results and some interesting crystals on the  rear.

20th Apr 2024 14:24 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Good questions Greg & Herwig.
I have analysed a few specimens from Woods mine, along with various other minerals, and all the "rhodonite" turned out to have insufficient Ca to be what we now call rhodonite.  Its very unfortunate that rhodonite was renamed to a mineral different to the endmember MnSiO3 that we once took it to be, but I guess the researchers figured that most of the old "rhodonite" contained too much Ca to fit that end member.  I have also analysed a lot of "rhodonites" from Broken Hill (largely rhodonite to ferrorhodonite) and Tasmania (ranging from rhodonite to vittinkiite) and it leads me to believe there is probably complete solid solution between these minerals. Pyroxmangite and bustamite don't form a solid solution with rhodonite group minerals.  I certainly cannot say for sure that rhodonite does not occur at Woods mine, but it all seems very Ca-poor from my work so far. Vittinkiite may well occur at Broken Hill as its more variable, but hasn't been confirmed in my analyses to date - I need to do this. I have a paper in prep but needs a little work yet. 

Rhodonite and ferrorhodonite are now hard to prove without crystal-chemical study, unless they have high Ca and Fe respectively, but vittinkiite is easier to prove if you have a sample with very low Ca.

Re your sample with the large pink crystals in the saccharoidal groundmass, I would love to test a tiny piece of this. The XRD pattern of rhodonite and vittinkiite are essentially indistinguishable, so we need some accurate chemistry, eg. probe analyses. I don't understand how you got an amorphous result on the groundmass; samples like that I tested came back as largely quartz with subordinate vittinkiite and some rhodochrosite. There are some secondary black manganese silicates of variable composition that are effectively amorphous though.  Will be interesting to see what else you have there. 


20th Apr 2024 14:43 UTCDalibor Matýsek

Po 40 letech měření PXRD docela dobře chápu, jak může být minerál rodonitu amorfní. Často se jedná o laboratorní artefakt. Pokud byla použita trubice s Co antikatodou, materiály s vysokým obsahem Mn způsobují velmi vysoké fluorescenční pozadí a materiál se může jevit jako amorfní.

20th Apr 2024 14:50 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Very true Dalibor, I was just thinking the same! We run our XRDs with a monochromator which removes these problems. 

20th Apr 2024 15:06 UTCDalibor Matýsek

Clearly. I solve it by setting the detector (energy discrimination).

20th Apr 2024 15:08 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Yes in newer machines it seems easier to set the discrimination without monochromators.

21st Apr 2024 09:06 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

So Rhodonite used to be an end-member manganese silicate, was redefined as a calcium manganese silicate, and now it turns out there is an end-member manganese silicate after all.  Seems like an almighty mess and one of those cases where maybe names such as Rhodonite-(CaFe) and Rhodonite-(MnMn) would have been more appropriate

21st Apr 2024 09:33 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Yes and rhodonite-(MnFe), leaving rhodonite as a group name, but the IMA never seem to realise the confusion we get when they approve the reuse of an old name for a new composition.

21st Apr 2024 12:03 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Ralph, what current species would rhodonite-(MnFe) represent?

I think we're currently at:

rhodonite (sensu stricto), rhodonite-(CaMn) 
vittinkiite, rhodonite-(MnMn) 
ferro-rhodonite, rhodonite-(CaFe)

we might one day get rhodonite-(CaZn) for "fowlerite", but that's one reason why this otherwise logical idea will never get traction... no way the Franklin fanboys will ever let a M4Zn-dominant rhodonite not be called fowlerite... lol

21st Apr 2024 12:59 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Well. all we really need is a distinction between rhodonite (sensu stricto) and the use of the name 'rhodonite' in historical usage and as a new group name.

Perhaps calcio-rhodonite would be the better name for rhodonite (CaMn) if we don't wnat to get everything else renamed, leaving rhodonite as a field term and a group name.

21st Apr 2024 13:01 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

There are other cases of course where a species name for a very specific composition is the same as a widely-used field name for the same group, and if I had more time I'd write a proposal to rename all of them to manage this.  Eudialyte is one. 

21st Apr 2024 15:39 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

...and Alunite. If the mineral namers had good sense, there would never be a group name that was the same as one of its individual species names.

21st Apr 2024 22:35 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Spinel is a classic problem - geologists and petrologists tend to use the name for any mineral in that group, leaving you wondering what it actually is.

21st Apr 2024 22:51 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

It is surprising that nobody has yes looked at the cation ordering in fowlerite, it must be a strong contender for a new species! Rhodonite can also contain substantial Mg, so that’s also a possibility for another new species. Then there is dyssnite, supposedly a rhodonite variety containing higher valence Mn, leading to a possibility of charge balance with Li orNa?

21st Apr 2024 23:09 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

I had an undergrad student interested working on fowlerite, not as a serious project, but just as a fun diversion to complement his mineralogy/petrology education. Some preliminary analyses measured ~0.60 apfu Zn, so if all that's in M4 (and could well be, given its penchant for distorted sites), then it'd qualify as a new species. But my student graduated prior to really getting into the project, so it'll probably have to wait for another student who's interested (or until someone else interested in fowlerite gets around to doing it).

22nd Apr 2024 15:24 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

now it turns out there is an end-member manganese silicate after all. 
No, only some samples.


>where maybe names such as Rhodonite-(CaFe) and Rhodonite-(MnMn) would have been more appropriate 
 
No. There are five divalent cation sites. Even a simplified different nomenclature scheme (two sites seem to be always occupied by Mn2+) would necessitate names such a rhodonite-(CaMnMn) and rhodonite-(MnMnMn).
Details can be found in:
Shchipalkina, N.V., Pekov, I.V., Chukanov, N.V., Biagioni, C., Pasero, M. (2019): Crystal chemistry and nomenclature of rhodonite-group minerals. Mineralogical Magazine, 83, 829-835.
https://rruff.info/uploads/MM83_829.pdf
 
Pp. 832-833:
"Now, the name rhodonite is applied to samples
with the ideal formula CaMn3Mn[Si5O15] = CaMn4[Si5O15], for
the following reasons: (1) the first reliable chemical analyses of
rhodonite belong mainly to samples with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu
(Sundius, 1931); (2) the first published powder XRD data
(Mikheev and Dubinina, 1948) were obtained on a sample with
the empirical formula (Mn4.21Ca0.59Fe0.14Mg0.09)Σ5.03[Si4.98O15],
i.e. with Ca > 0.5 apfu; (3) the first description of the crystal structure
of a rhodonite-group mineral with reported chemical data
was for a sample with the ideal formula CaMn4[Si5O15], thus
being Ca-dominant at the M(5) site (Liebau et al., 1959); and
(4) the rhodonite-group mineral corresponding chemically to
the formula CaMn4[Si5O15] (i.e. with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu) is
much more widespread in nature than the mineral with Ca <
0.5 apfu."


EDIT: Link to pdf added.

22nd Apr 2024 22:10 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Uwe, there were two problems with this renaming argument. 

Firstly the statement “... the first reliable chemical analyses of rhodonite belong mainly to samples with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu ...”  indicates that the name really was used for two different minerals, i.e., it should have become a group name. 

The second is the statement that “ ... the rhodonite-group mineral corresponding chemically to the formula CaMn4[Si5O15] (i.e. with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu) is much more widespread in nature than the mineral with Ca <0.5 apfu."  This is highly doubtful; as Greg noted above, there are thousands of tonnes of this material mined in Woods mine and other similar deposits for lapidaries and collectors that seems to lack Ca. Surely a redefinition should have been based on type material from the Harz rather than a subjective assessment of available analyses? Even if it was correct it implies that it’s fine to give an old name to a new species when it clearly now represents a group, even if it creates utter confusion. Nearly every specimen in museums labelled rhodonite will now need to be questioned to whether that is the species name or just its group name. 

22nd Apr 2024 23:01 UTCA. A. Faller

ExACTly!

23rd Apr 2024 05:46 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Ralph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager  ✉️

Nearly every specimen in museums labelled rhodonite will now need to be questioned to whether that is the species name or just its group name. 
 One minor advantage to the new nomenclature is that a museum too unmotivated or too cheap to analyze their "rhodonite" could just pencil-in the word "group" at the end, and basically still have the sampled ID'ed accurately (if perhaps not very precisely).

23rd Apr 2024 06:30 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Frank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager  ✉️

could just pencil-in the word "group" at the end, and basically still have the sampled ID'ed accurately (if perhaps not very precisely)
 Right, and ditto for alunite-jarosite, jahnsite, etc etc. But I would still rather see group names that don't duplicate one of the member species names, like Tourmaline, Garnet, Mica, Smectite, Feldspar, Amphibole, Pyroxene, Chlorite, etc.  Or is there some reason that this seems to be mainly done for silicates?

23rd Apr 2024 09:07 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Frank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager  ✉️

One minor advantage to the new nomenclature is that a museum too unmotivated or too cheap to analyze their "rhodonite" could just pencil-in the word "group" at the end, and basically still have the sampled ID'ed accurately (if perhaps not very precisely).
 I don't care what museums do or don't do, the problem is that as a visitor if we see something labelled as 'Rhodonite', we have no idea of knowing whether they mean Rhodonite (historical usage, ie the group) or Rhodonite (modern usage, as analysed)

This becomes a much bigger problem when dealing with the data science of analysing current and historical records for the name and, indeed, our own data here on mindat.

There really need to be much better rules in place at the IMA to prevent these sorts of problems, which are, in my mind, FAR more important than trying to keep those who are sentimentally attached to older names happy.

23rd Apr 2024 09:11 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

Basically the rule should be:

"If a mineral named X is re-investigated and found to be numerous related species, then the original name should not be used for any of the redefined species and only for the group"

23rd Apr 2024 09:25 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

I agree... maybe mindat as an organization should make a formal proposal to the IMA?

23rd Apr 2024 16:32 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

I agree with the above suggestions.

23rd Apr 2024 22:20 UTCDemetrius Pohl Expert

An excellent suggestion. How can Mindat get IMA to sit up and take action?

23rd Apr 2024 23:08 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

My understanding is that anyone can submit a proposal for the IMA to discuss.  The best way to do this would be to put together a list of all of the recent problems that have impacted data science with mineral nomenclature changes by the IMA, and do a polite "can the IMA please stop doing this?" proposal explaining the harm caused by some well-meant but badly thought through decisions.

23rd Apr 2024 23:20 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder

The problem is to do with the IMA's rules on name priority when it comes to something that's been well-described especially if it's been approved by the IMA and type material exists. In these cases it's an uphill battle to convince them that a perfectly good name has to be taken away from the species it was originally given to because the name really now has broader meaning than simply the species.

This is especially the case after all the fuss that many people, including us, made about other changes in past, like the epidote group renamings, and the apatite groups.

The difference is that in those cases they were renamed simply because someone thought it would be better organized to have the names consistent, which was absolutely unnecessary and just added to the confusion.

In this case we're arguing that the name essentially remains with what the usage of the material was before the mineral species was divided up, so that instead of adding confusion we are reducing confusion by renaming the species.



Now... there are of course cases where mineral X may be found to be new mineral Y in some very rare and obscure cases, in which case I don't have a problem with mineral X retaining its name.  But when we have widespread confusion over what this name now means, as the rhodonite change has given us, then it's time to fix things with a new name.

23rd Apr 2024 17:27 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert

Then there is a situation in my own personal household, where I tend to look into all of the above to see just how to put things in my collection and photos but Mary ignores this mostly and says she is interested in the beauty of the specimens and not so much with all the above mess in trying to figure it all out.   I think there is another sub sector of mineral collectors who read the above and just go on using the old names they learned years ago.
A fine balance for sure.

25th Apr 2024 07:52 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Rolf, the old names like garnet, tourmaline, feldspar, apatite etc are still perfectly acceptable if you haven't analysed everything in great detail, we just sometimes seem a bit nit-picking with trying to find precise names. Nature is usually analogue rather than digital, so not everything fits in a neat little box.

25th Apr 2024 15:22 UTCDon Saathoff Expert

Well said, Ralph!!
 
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