Home PageAbout MindatThe Mindat ManualHistory of MindatCopyright StatusWho We AreContact UsAdvertise on Mindat
Donate to MindatCorporate SponsorshipSponsor a PageSponsored PagesMindat AdvertisersAdvertise on Mindat
Learning CenterWhat is a mineral?The most common minerals on earthInformation for EducatorsMindat ArticlesThe ElementsThe Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryGeologic Time
Minerals by PropertiesMinerals by ChemistryAdvanced Locality SearchRandom MineralRandom LocalitySearch by minIDLocalities Near MeSearch ArticlesSearch GlossaryMore Search Options
The Mindat ManualAdd a New PhotoRate PhotosLocality Edit ReportCoordinate Completion ReportAdd Glossary Item
Mining CompaniesStatisticsUsersMineral MuseumsClubs & OrganizationsMineral Shows & EventsThe Mindat DirectoryDevice SettingsThe Mineral Quiz
Photo SearchPhoto GalleriesSearch by ColorNew Photos TodayNew Photos YesterdayMembers' Photo GalleriesPast Photo of the Day GalleryPhotography
╳Discussions
💬 Home🔎 Search📅 LatestGroups
EducationOpen discussion area.Fakes & FraudsOpen discussion area.Field CollectingOpen discussion area.FossilsOpen discussion area.Gems and GemologyOpen discussion area.GeneralOpen discussion area.How to ContributeOpen discussion area.Identity HelpOpen discussion area.Improving Mindat.orgOpen discussion area.LocalitiesOpen discussion area.Lost and Stolen SpecimensOpen discussion area.MarketplaceOpen discussion area.MeteoritesOpen discussion area.Mindat ProductsOpen discussion area.Mineral ExchangesOpen discussion area.Mineral PhotographyOpen discussion area.Mineral ShowsOpen discussion area.Mineralogical ClassificationOpen discussion area.Mineralogy CourseOpen discussion area.MineralsOpen discussion area.Minerals and MuseumsOpen discussion area.PhotosOpen discussion area.Techniques for CollectorsOpen discussion area.The Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryOpen discussion area.UV MineralsOpen discussion area.Recent Images in Discussions
EducationWhat does the ? behind the Rhodonite, mean.
20th Apr 2024 02:57 UTCGreg Dainty
I was wondering what the question mark behind the Rhodonite name in the list of minerals from the Woods Rhodonite mine indicate?
20th Apr 2024 03:05 UTCKevin Conroy Manager
"Fine grained. Analyses indicate vittinkiite (R Bottrill in prep)."
20th Apr 2024 03:44 UTCGreg Dainty
Unfortunately Mindat does not give a hardness for Vittinkiite.
Its a little hard to believe that the thousands of tons of "rhodonite' that this mine produce , was all wrongly labeled. Its easier to believe that vittinkiite, does occur at this location, to some extent. Is it possible to find out when Ralph made the notation, and if he has confirmed all "rhodonite" from the location is actualluy vittinkiite?
20th Apr 2024 04:35 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
Greg Dainty ✉️
Its a little hard to believe that the thousands of tons of "rhodonite' that this mine produce , was all wrongly labeled. They weren't wrongly labelled, because it was indeed all "rhodonite" as then understood, before 2020 when vittinkiite was published and it became known that what we used to call "rhodonite" is in fact several different species.
20th Apr 2024 05:14 UTCGreg Dainty
Thanks Alfredo, for the explanation.
So do we now put a question mark behind all locations that rhodonite was previously identified prior to 2020? For example Broken Hill Domain has no question mark.
I recently had a Woods mine specimen XRD tested. The identify of the gemmy bladed xls was confirmed as rhodonite. Does rhodonite as a singular mineral actually exist any more?
20th Apr 2024 05:48 UTCHerwig Pelckmans
On the same page:
Some preliminary analyses indicate much material currently called rhodonite is actually vittinkiite, ferrorhodonite or pyroxmangite, and probably should be termed rhodonite group until analyzed. Most of these species are slightly darker than true rhodonite but chemical analysis and sometimes XRD is required for identification.
20th Apr 2024 18:27 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
I recently had a Woods mine specimen XRD tested. The identify of the gemmy bladed xls was confirmed as rhodonite.
XRD is insufficient to distinguish vittinkiite and rhodonite. (It also depends on what "standard" XRD pattern was used for the ID.)
20th Apr 2024 06:16 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
20th Apr 2024 08:14 UTCHerwig Pelckmans
Ideally, that kind of information should be on the rhodonite group page...
20th Apr 2024 10:33 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
20th Apr 2024 11:19 UTCGreg Dainty
Thank everybody, especially Frank, for his comments and observations.
I forget to mention before. Interestingly the pink material in the above specimen came back as amorphous, with XRD.
I have arranged to have the specimen studied at a lab, re the amorphous results and some interesting crystals on the rear.
20th Apr 2024 14:24 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
I have analysed a few specimens from Woods mine, along with various other minerals, and all the "rhodonite" turned out to have insufficient Ca to be what we now call rhodonite. Its very unfortunate that rhodonite was renamed to a mineral different to the endmember MnSiO3 that we once took it to be, but I guess the researchers figured that most of the old "rhodonite" contained too much Ca to fit that end member. I have also analysed a lot of "rhodonites" from Broken Hill (largely rhodonite to ferrorhodonite) and Tasmania (ranging from rhodonite to vittinkiite) and it leads me to believe there is probably complete solid solution between these minerals. Pyroxmangite and bustamite don't form a solid solution with rhodonite group minerals. I certainly cannot say for sure that rhodonite does not occur at Woods mine, but it all seems very Ca-poor from my work so far. Vittinkiite may well occur at Broken Hill as its more variable, but hasn't been confirmed in my analyses to date - I need to do this. I have a paper in prep but needs a little work yet.
Rhodonite and ferrorhodonite are now hard to prove without crystal-chemical study, unless they have high Ca and Fe respectively, but vittinkiite is easier to prove if you have a sample with very low Ca.
Re your sample with the large pink crystals in the saccharoidal groundmass, I would love to test a tiny piece of this. The XRD pattern of rhodonite and vittinkiite are essentially indistinguishable, so we need some accurate chemistry, eg. probe analyses. I don't understand how you got an amorphous result on the groundmass; samples like that I tested came back as largely quartz with subordinate vittinkiite and some rhodochrosite. There are some secondary black manganese silicates of variable composition that are effectively amorphous though. Will be interesting to see what else you have there.
20th Apr 2024 14:43 UTCDalibor Matýsek
20th Apr 2024 14:50 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
20th Apr 2024 15:06 UTCDalibor Matýsek
20th Apr 2024 15:08 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
21st Apr 2024 09:06 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
21st Apr 2024 09:33 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
21st Apr 2024 12:03 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
I think we're currently at:
rhodonite (sensu stricto), rhodonite-(CaMn)
vittinkiite, rhodonite-(MnMn)
ferro-rhodonite, rhodonite-(CaFe)
we might one day get rhodonite-(CaZn) for "fowlerite", but that's one reason why this otherwise logical idea will never get traction... no way the Franklin fanboys will ever let a M4Zn-dominant rhodonite not be called fowlerite... lol
21st Apr 2024 12:59 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
Perhaps calcio-rhodonite would be the better name for rhodonite (CaMn) if we don't wnat to get everything else renamed, leaving rhodonite as a field term and a group name.
21st Apr 2024 13:01 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
21st Apr 2024 15:39 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
21st Apr 2024 22:35 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
21st Apr 2024 22:51 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
21st Apr 2024 23:09 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
22nd Apr 2024 15:24 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
now it turns out there is an end-member manganese silicate after all.
No, only some samples.
>where maybe names such as Rhodonite-(CaFe) and Rhodonite-(MnMn) would have been more appropriate
Details can be found in:
Shchipalkina, N.V., Pekov, I.V., Chukanov, N.V., Biagioni, C., Pasero, M. (2019): Crystal chemistry and nomenclature of rhodonite-group minerals. Mineralogical Magazine, 83, 829-835.
https://rruff.info/uploads/MM83_829.pdf
with the ideal formula CaMn3Mn[Si5O15] = CaMn4[Si5O15], for
the following reasons: (1) the first reliable chemical analyses of
rhodonite belong mainly to samples with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu
(Sundius, 1931); (2) the first published powder XRD data
(Mikheev and Dubinina, 1948) were obtained on a sample with
the empirical formula (Mn4.21Ca0.59Fe0.14Mg0.09)Σ5.03[Si4.98O15],
i.e. with Ca > 0.5 apfu; (3) the first description of the crystal structure
of a rhodonite-group mineral with reported chemical data
was for a sample with the ideal formula CaMn4[Si5O15], thus
being Ca-dominant at the M(5) site (Liebau et al., 1959); and
(4) the rhodonite-group mineral corresponding chemically to
the formula CaMn4[Si5O15] (i.e. with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu) is
much more widespread in nature than the mineral with Ca <
0.5 apfu."
Pp. 832-833:
"Now, the name rhodonite is applied to sampleswith the ideal formula CaMn3Mn[Si5O15] = CaMn4[Si5O15], for
the following reasons: (1) the first reliable chemical analyses of
(Sundius, 1931); (2) the first published powder XRD data
(Mikheev and Dubinina, 1948) were obtained on a sample with
the empirical formula (Mn4.21Ca0.59Fe0.14Mg0.09)Σ5.03[Si4.98O15],
i.e. with Ca > 0.5 apfu; (3) the first description of the crystal structure
of a rhodonite-group mineral with reported chemical data
was for a sample with the ideal formula CaMn4[Si5O15], thus
being Ca-dominant at the M(5) site (Liebau et al., 1959); and
(4) the rhodonite-group mineral corresponding chemically to
the formula CaMn4[Si5O15] (i.e. with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu) is
much more widespread in nature than the mineral with Ca <
0.5 apfu."
EDIT: Link to pdf added.
22nd Apr 2024 22:10 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
Firstly the statement “... the first reliable chemical analyses of rhodonite belong mainly to samples with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu ...” indicates that the name really was used for two different minerals, i.e., it should have become a group name.
The second is the statement that “ ... the rhodonite-group mineral corresponding chemically to the formula CaMn4[Si5O15] (i.e. with 0.5 < Ca < 1.5 apfu) is much more widespread in nature than the mineral with Ca <0.5 apfu." This is highly doubtful; as Greg noted above, there are thousands of tonnes of this material mined in Woods mine and other similar deposits for lapidaries and collectors that seems to lack Ca. Surely a redefinition should have been based on type material from the Harz rather than a subjective assessment of available analyses? Even if it was correct it implies that it’s fine to give an old name to a new species when it clearly now represents a group, even if it creates utter confusion. Nearly every specimen in museums labelled rhodonite will now need to be questioned to whether that is the species name or just its group name.
22nd Apr 2024 23:01 UTCA. A. Faller
23rd Apr 2024 05:46 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
Ralph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager ✉️
Nearly every specimen in museums labelled rhodonite will now need to be questioned to whether that is the species name or just its group name. One minor advantage to the new nomenclature is that a museum too unmotivated or too cheap to analyze their "rhodonite" could just pencil-in the word "group" at the end, and basically still have the sampled ID'ed accurately (if perhaps not very precisely).
23rd Apr 2024 06:30 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
Frank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager ✉️
could just pencil-in the word "group" at the end, and basically still have the sampled ID'ed accurately (if perhaps not very precisely) Right, and ditto for alunite-jarosite, jahnsite, etc etc. But I would still rather see group names that don't duplicate one of the member species names, like Tourmaline, Garnet, Mica, Smectite, Feldspar, Amphibole, Pyroxene, Chlorite, etc. Or is there some reason that this seems to be mainly done for silicates?
23rd Apr 2024 09:07 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
Frank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager ✉️
One minor advantage to the new nomenclature is that a museum too unmotivated or too cheap to analyze their "rhodonite" could just pencil-in the word "group" at the end, and basically still have the sampled ID'ed accurately (if perhaps not very precisely). I don't care what museums do or don't do, the problem is that as a visitor if we see something labelled as 'Rhodonite', we have no idea of knowing whether they mean Rhodonite (historical usage, ie the group) or Rhodonite (modern usage, as analysed)
This becomes a much bigger problem when dealing with the data science of analysing current and historical records for the name and, indeed, our own data here on mindat.
There really need to be much better rules in place at the IMA to prevent these sorts of problems, which are, in my mind, FAR more important than trying to keep those who are sentimentally attached to older names happy.
This becomes a much bigger problem when dealing with the data science of analysing current and historical records for the name and, indeed, our own data here on mindat.
There really need to be much better rules in place at the IMA to prevent these sorts of problems, which are, in my mind, FAR more important than trying to keep those who are sentimentally attached to older names happy.
23rd Apr 2024 09:11 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
"If a mineral named X is re-investigated and found to be numerous related species, then the original name should not be used for any of the redefined species and only for the group"
23rd Apr 2024 09:25 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
23rd Apr 2024 16:32 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
23rd Apr 2024 22:20 UTCDemetrius Pohl Expert
23rd Apr 2024 23:08 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
23rd Apr 2024 23:20 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
This is especially the case after all the fuss that many people, including us, made about other changes in past, like the epidote group renamings, and the apatite groups.
The difference is that in those cases they were renamed simply because someone thought it would be better organized to have the names consistent, which was absolutely unnecessary and just added to the confusion.
In this case we're arguing that the name essentially remains with what the usage of the material was before the mineral species was divided up, so that instead of adding confusion we are reducing confusion by renaming the species.
Now... there are of course cases where mineral X may be found to be new mineral Y in some very rare and obscure cases, in which case I don't have a problem with mineral X retaining its name. But when we have widespread confusion over what this name now means, as the rhodonite change has given us, then it's time to fix things with a new name.
23rd Apr 2024 17:27 UTCRolf Luetcke Expert
A fine balance for sure.
25th Apr 2024 07:52 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
25th Apr 2024 15:22 UTCDon Saathoff Expert
Mindat.org is an outreach project of the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: May 3, 2024 11:33:19
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: May 3, 2024 11:33:19