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Generalradon gas

21st Dec 2012 23:07 UTCGlenn Rhein

In a recent home inspection of my house they did a Radon gas test, the levels were higher then the acceptable level. For somewhere between $1000 to $1500 they can lower the levels by a fan and vent system. They did suggest removing all the Minerals and retesting. The house is full of rocks but is it possible that they can elevate the levels or am I waisting my time removing all the rocks. Any of you mineral collectors ever tested for Radon ?

21st Dec 2012 23:25 UTCMike Royal

interesting glenn with the open floorplan you have and high ceilings i would never thought that but id keep the rocks and get a fan

but instal it myself

22nd Dec 2012 01:56 UTCMatt Neuzil Expert

You could try a second company perhaps this first company just wants to get the money for the fan system... The minerals you have been pulling out there weren't big uranium or thorium minerals so there shouldn't be much radioactivity i would think. It could be something in the underlaying geology that is putting out some radon. Don't know how much your radon tests cost but I'd really try a second company for testing. just my thoughts

22nd Dec 2012 02:01 UTCGary Moldovany

I'm in the land surveying business. We do a great deal of surveys of residential homes in NJ. It seems like almost every house I work on has one of these "Radon Mitigation Units" or whatever they are called. I would be very skeptical of any determination by a private company of the presence of radon gas. I personally think it's a huge scam, although I am by no means an expert or have any professional knowledge about radon gas determination. Please correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't the presence of radon gas mean that there are higher than normal levels of radioactivity in the soil? I don't think any of your local minerals are radioactive, Glenn, but it's easy enough to get a Geiger Counter and check them. I would be interested to hear other's opinions on this. Just my 2 cents worth, Gary

22nd Dec 2012 02:55 UTCTom Mortimer Expert

My home and both my son's homes are in New England (USA). Between us we purchased two commercial radon detectors: both were the "Safety Siren Pro Series HS71512 3 Radon Gas Detector"...about $125 on the web. All three homes were tested with both detectors. These detectors gave results that were within ten percent of the other in each home. The detectors indicated two of the homes had radon levels that exceeded state guidelines. Tests by radon mitigation companies were in general agreement with the levels we measured. These two high radon level homes had radon mitigation systems installed. After installation, the radon levels were re-measured with our HS71512 3 Radon Gas Detectors. In both cases, the measured levels had dropped below the safe guideline level.

This experiment convinced me that these home use detectors do work and provide a reasonably accurate, consistant, measurement of the radon hazzard....and that professionally installed radon mitigation systems are effective.

As a side note, I also tested the radon levels in my basement "rockroom" and my second floor "mineral office." Both of these rooms have about a dozen TN sized radioactive specimens. Neither of these rooms had a radon level higher than adjacent rooms.

Tom Mortimer

22nd Dec 2012 04:59 UTCD Mike Reinke

Glenn,

Your main thread is wonderful, and we'd hate to lose you (!) but I don't think radon will take you out. A few paragraphs of this thread should suffice:

http://lancasteronline.com/article/local/235818_Are-radon-fears-overblown-.html

What is an "acceptable" level?

My dad was 20 yrs in water treatment, and is fond of saying "Water will kill you if you take too much."

The only people I know in fear of radon have been fear-mongered, (if that is a verb) and chose to believe it, though they admit many have told them they are overreacting.

That article says it is in the soil naturally, in which case, we are all doomed!

My two cents, but, hey, thanks for asking.

22nd Dec 2012 08:05 UTCBart Cannon

I have started a thread or two on this issue, so please forgive me for continuing on it.

A gieger counter will not directly detect radon gas.

I have a super "hot" metal map drawer of Congo radioactives. I couldn't care less about the radioactivity, but I do worry about the radon they produce. That stuff gets right into your lungs.

Since radon is a gas it must be collected on a filter by the use of a calibrated vacuum pump sucking the atmosphere through a filter.

Then the radioactivity of the filter is measured with a detector within a precise holding chamber, and presumed to correlate with radon levels.

I spent an entire summer using a "radon sniffer" in the country side around the Daybreak Uranium Mine.

Here is how the process worked. Surveyors laid out a sampling grid, then a kid with a post hole auger drilled a 3" hole in the soil, then I walked the grid with the holes, and capped the hole with an inverted toilet plunger through which a surgical tubing terminated by a filter holder was placed toward the bottom of the hole. Then the calibrated vacuum pump was turned on and the radiation detector displayed the counts of radon gas collected the filter after being placed in the counting chamber. The counter display was a mechanical odometer like mechanism. But the system worked, and we could see the results plainly and map them with high correlation to ore. I wish I could remember who made that darned thing.

This was in 1969.

I have made a crude copy of the device, but I don't have time integration on my geiger counter, and I don't even know if it was a geiger counter that served as the detector.

Bart

22nd Dec 2012 13:08 UTCRock Currier Expert

I suspect that radon systems that flush radon "contaminated" air out of basements and houses would provably be more valuable in reducing humidity that might degrade water soluble minerals in collections and reducing mold growth than protecting anyone from radon health hazards.

22nd Dec 2012 13:13 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

I spent many years as an environmental consultant and worked to decommission a nuclear power plant, so I have some experience/training in the radon situation. Because of the heating and cooling systems in any house, and the "chimney effect" caused by your, well, chimney, all homes have low pressure inside and tend to act like vacuum cleaners on the surrounding environment and draw things in from the outside air and from vapor in the soil. The radon comes from the latter. Radon is a daughter of the radioactive decay of uranium and is a highly mobile gas, so it moves easily through the groundwater and air in the unsaturated soil above it. It is drawn into homes through porous concrete and cracks in the foundation, so it tends to have its highest concentrations in the basement. The soil is NOT radioactive, the radon (which is what is radioactive) comes ultimately from uranium breaking down in the bedrock under the soil. The amount varies greatly by region.

I cannot tell you whether you should believe the tests, believe the hazard, or what is the best approach for mitigation as every home/setting is different. But understand that because there is flow of air through the house and out the chimney, the radon is constantly purged and replenished but it also varies diurnally and seasonally. First thing to do is seal all the basement cracks and then seal the surface of the concrete (concrete is porous!) and then retest. Tests should run for several days to average out the diurnal effects, and also 4 times a year to see how it varies over the year. Some remedial systems work by creating an even lower pressure via fans to draw the radon out before it gets to where it is not wanted. Thus they must be carefully placed in the house to do the most good. Just sticking a fan in the window or wall upstairs may simply draw the radon to the upper rooms where you live. Properly installed, they work, but because the ultimate source of the radon is the environment, you must run it forever, with all the attendant power and maintenance costs. So if you can seal up the basement (yes, a real pain and costly, but short-term - and it will help keep water out) and retesting gets you below the limits, you may avoid those long-term, constant costs.

Another source of radon in homes is well water. Radon may be dissolved in the groundwater and if you have a well the radon will be dispersed into the home whenever you run a tap or shower. This can cause short-term pulses of radon that may cause test samples to exceed the limits. That radon also tends to be at higher concentrations in the upper part of the house where we spend our time, rather than in the basement. If you have a well and you have radon in the indoor air you should test the well water. Radon can be filtered from the well water before it is used, another long-term cost, but what choice do you have?

I cannot be your consultant, but if you are at all concerned you need to get a local one, familiar with the local situation, testing procedures, and regulations, WHO IS NOT ALSO A RADON SYSTEM CONTRACTOR! Also do not rely on regulators for advice, they have the government's interests as a priority, not yours. An independent consultant working only for you will not have a bias and will do his/her best to save you money. Working with your consultant, you can pick the remedial system, not the contractor, then hire the best contractor for that system. Yes it will cost you more in the short term to pay a consultant, but they will give you confidence that any remedial system, if even necessary, is appropriate and effective and thus save you money in the long term. Look at it this way, if you are in legal trouble, you hire an attorney to advise and negotiate for you, not the police or a judge!

As for radon from the minerals - that source is laughably trivial (even of uranium is present) compared to the vast quantities in the ground in certain areas. Keep and enjoy them!

22nd Dec 2012 15:47 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Hello Harold,

I am curious about your remark "Also do not rely on regulators for advice, they have the government's interests as a priority, not yours." I can't for the life of me figure out what their interests would be that would not also be in the interest of the public. After all environmental regulations were established to safeguard the public where they not? Generally speaking wouldn't private consultants be more inclined to put their interests ( making money) ahead of safety of the public? Maybe the best thing would be to ask both a private consultant and a government regulator in order to get a balanced opinion?.

22nd Dec 2012 16:30 UTCEric D. Fritzsch 🌟

I work as an environmental consultant and my first question is what is the level they detected (usually expressed as picro curies per liter). The EPA recommends levels of less than 4 pci/l for households. Please keep in mind that this is a recommendation, not a regulation. OSHA/ NRC regulates radon at 50 pci/l. OSHA levels are actually 100 pci/l but the NRC level takes precedent. This means you can work in an environment with radon levels up to 50 pci/l for upto 8 hours per day at work. You can't avoid radon, it's in the clean air outdoors (around 0.4 pci/l).

If you check on the web you can probably find the average radon level for houses in your county. You've probably lived in similar house you whole life. The dangers of radon are higher if you are a smoker. Consider how much time you spend in your basement. If you sleep down there (1/3 of your day) you have a higher risk.

Having a few radioactive minerals in your collection does not dramatically increase the radon levels in your house. Keep in mind that radon is coming from millions of tons of earth below your house. Having a natural gas furnace may increase the levels very slightly.

You'll have to weigh your risk with what you consider acceptable. You can remove all the stairs in your house and install ramps because people fall down stairs and get injured or die. Installing a fire sprinkler system is probably a better risk mitigation than radon. Wear your seat belt and avoid sky diving.

22nd Dec 2012 19:06 UTCGlenn Rhein

Well thanks everyone for all the advice....I seem to recall the level was in the 4 range when we moved in seven years ago and the test was in July. The recent test was 12 , the heating system uses propane with a gas pilot and I close the vents in the crawl space for the winter. So its sounds like all these things including the minerals can have a slight impact on the levels. Many houses in this county have problems with radon and I believe there was an old Uranium mine in Sterling Forest years ago at the east part of county.

well Merry Christmas and happy holidays to all.

Glenn

22nd Dec 2012 22:36 UTCBart Cannon

My home in Seattle sits on 300 feet of glacial alluvium. I think we have the lowest radioactive background in the country. Not even a speck of monazite in our sands. Northeastern Washington is a different story. Many radioactives in the various plutons and alluvia derived from them.

I will certainly die from a heart attack or a stroke, not lung cancer due to radon exposure, even though I have much more than a "few" radioactive mineral specimens.

I just want to learn how to directly measure radon out of general curiosity, though there is tiny chance that I could also die from radon induced lung cancer, and I would like to be aware. Lung cancer from radon exposure sounds like a long slow death.

I did discover one pegmatite zone 30 miles East of Seattle and 10 miles South which contains uraninite, autunite and other odd radioactives as well as crystals of a new tantalum silicate. But that stuff couldn't get to the ablation till upon which my home sits.

Bart

22nd Dec 2012 23:01 UTCPhil Walsh

I'm sure that Bart remembers that here in central Montana there are three or four old mines where people pay good money to go sit for hours in an environment of highly concentrated radon gas. It supposedly helps their arthritis. Many of these folks have been coming here for years. Phil

23rd Dec 2012 14:23 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

"I can't for the life of me figure out what their interests would be that would not also be in the interest of the public. After all environmental regulations were established to safeguard the public where they not? Generally speaking wouldn't private consultants be more inclined to put their interests ( making money) ahead of safety of the public? Maybe the best thing would be to ask both a private consultant and a government regulator in order to get a balanced opinion?."

In my experience the answer to these is generally, no, no and yes.

Regulations are established based on legislation that was based on a perception that legislators had that there is something needing safeguarding, and thus they must do something to curry favor with voters. The key word is perception. Once regulations and exposure standards or cleanup levels are written, regulators tend to hold them as gospel, no matter how overly conservative the method used to develop them is. And they tend to be extremely conservative, being developed from human exposure risks that include the most cautious assumptions multiplied by the most cautious assumptions, etc., which leads to very low thresholds for "protection". Then they apply them in a one-size-fits-all manner because they arent allowed the flexibility to apply something perhaps less stringent, but more appropriate for a specific situation, as this may set a precedent that if wrong could get them into trouble. Thus their primary interest is the sanctity of the regulations, which indirectly are supposed to safeguard the public. They may or may not, but they may also cost the regulated a lot of money and time to comply with, but generally they are unconcerned with that.

A private consultant is working for you. While they are obviously in business to make money, just like a doctor or lawyer, if you dont like what they are telling you, you can get a second opinion. Plus they also know that they can be fired or sued if they are negligent or unethical. Some have to be licensed and do not want to risk losing that. These factors tend to keep them honest. My advice for the client is to interview several consultants to find the one best experienced at your particular problem, and to watch carefully the hours and personnel that charge time to the job once hired. Question everything and make sure they justify it.

Opinions can certainly be obtained from all entities as they all have different and potentially valuable points of view. You can talk to regulators for free, and they will have all sorts of useful guidance documents or information on web sites, etc. The key thing is to understand what biases each entity has so you can decide who's advice to rely on most.

23rd Dec 2012 15:40 UTCBart Cannon

Phil,

I'm only aware of one Radon Spa in Central Montana. An old adit with a small stope near Basin which is between Helena and Butte.

It has been featured on some TV spots. People sitting at tables and enjoying the radon infusion.

There is something to it, perhaps. The concept of "hormesis" in which you expose yourself to low doses of various toxins in order to stimulate the immune system. From bacteria to primates, we all evolved in the presence of radioactive minerals.

Do you know anything about the mineralogy of the Basin mine? That's probably not the original name of the mine.

As an aside, I will mention that I think the Basin mine is near Indian Head Rock. A prolific producer of sharp golden barites. Right next to the highway between Butte and Helena. Most specimens have a stubborn coating of what may be fine grained late stage barite.

There are other golden barite localities in the area. One is South of Wickes in a field. I could probably never find it again.

Bart

23rd Dec 2012 20:20 UTCWilliam C. van Laer Expert

There are actually three radon "health" mines located in or near Basin, Montana: the Merry Widow Mine, about one mile east of basin on the north side of the highway (I-15) and the Earth Angel, located almost directly across the highway. There is another health mine called the Sunshine Radon Health mine located nearer to Boulder, a few miles east and north of Basin. All of these are located in old gold mines, and while I do not know much of the specific mineralogy, they are all located in the quartz monzonite of the Boulder Batholith. I have at one time examined a sample from the Merry Widow that was labelled autunite as I remember, but it was fine-grained and not easily recognized for what it was....or perhaps it wasn't!

Bart, you are right about the barite at Idian head rock, which is about a mile west of Basin; the outcrop on both sides of the highway yield barite crystals, but most are collected from south of the Bouolder River. In recent years, much more barite has been collected in the area around Whitehouse campground, which is about ten miles west of Basin, along the road to Champion Pass. In this area, literally dozens of separate barite veins have been worked for crystals, most of which are golden in color. A towering outcrop to the south of the river holds several productive barite veins that have yielded fine specimens for decades now....the late Butte collector Dan price said he worked two parallel veins just above the stream for a period of thirty years....the tunnel he dug extends a dozen feet into the volcanic host rock. When I examined his digs a few years ago, I noticed that on the original outcrop, adjacent to the tunnel, was a small opening that lead into a large cavity filled with sharp, green barites, including one plate of crystals up to 2-1/2 inches across; the plate measures about 6 x 6 inches and is only about one inch thick, and is entirely covered with flawless, undamaged barite crystals...it has been frequently compared to Rock Candy Mine barites.

Other veins have been worked by myself and others; I uncovered an undiscovered vein almost directly across the stream from Dan's workings, and dug out many large golden barite crystals; now there's a huge dig at this site over 20 feet long, following the vein. But the most interesting part of this area is a monstrous cavity located about halfway up the side of the "towering outcrop" i mentioned before...the vug is well-exposed subaerially and measures at least fifteen feet high and several across....it is entirely lined with golden barite crystals all as big as a human hand or larger...but all are "worn" from exposure and rough and well-rounded. Other sites on this outcrop we have worked by rapelling down the steep sides.

Throughout the area and well across the town of Basin are similar, bold and steep outcrops of a specific volcanic rock...an altered andesite with local pyrites replacing the rock sparingly....these outcrops are visible form the main roads and highways, and one friend I had once worked at the mill in Basin and spent the summer exploring these outcrops. he reports that barites are found in every one!

23rd Dec 2012 20:27 UTCRock Currier Expert

William is our Montana expert. It shows doesn't it.

24th Dec 2012 00:29 UTCPhil Walsh

The Sunshine Health Mine mentioned by Chris is in Galena Gulch, and there is another mine about one mile north of the town of Boulder, I don't remember the name

At Indian Head Rock on the South side of the highway one can find what is thought to be Uranocircite. It decrepitates pretty quick. I had a crystal about 1mm. Less than a month later it was gone. On freshly broken surfaces there won't be anything visible,but put it under a black light (sw) almost the whole surface will glow. A few days later there will be nothing to see.

At the Bluebell mine about one mile east of Indian Head on the south side of the highway, I have found small (up too about 5mm) clear and colorless crystals of barite and an as yet unidentified mineral. They are small grey hexagonal crystals about 2mm by 3mm in size.

As Bart said there is barite to be found throughout the area. Platy crystals have been found in High Ore Creek, and on the butte north of the highway, about a third of the way to the top, at Indian Head one can find grey nearly opaque crystals of barite to about 25mm. They are mostly overgrown by the fine grained massive barite that Bart mentioned. Phil

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