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EducationWhen my time will come…

20th Oct 2013 10:51 UTCRoberto Bosi

Hi all!

A necessary preamble is called for: far be it from me, with this topic, to sadden you at all or to bring bad luck to anyone…I want to be extremely clear concerning this! This is just a thought sometimes crossing my mind, and I only would like to know if this happens to someone else too and, in this case, what is your opinion…

To get to the point: have you ever thought what’s to become (a day I sincerely wish very, very, very distant to everyone!) of your beloved collections? Your sons will reap your stony inheritance or they will throw everything away? And if you have no sons? Your wife/husband/companion will see to it? Have you ever thought about a way to safeguard your treasures? A donation to a museum or to a friend of mine? What could be the best choice? A possible answer could be “when I’ll be passed away I’ll don’t care about minerals because I’ll be very busy doing something quite different”, but surely there are other points of view…

Forgive me for these unhappy mental masturbations; if you think right to tell me to go to hell, please feel free to do it!:)-D

Thanks!

20th Oct 2013 11:26 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Dr Russel MacFall (macfallite) wrote a detailed article on this topic once, many years ago. He concluded that the best thing that could happen to a collection after you die is for the pieces to be auctioned off individually by a dealer. That way each piece would go to the person who wanted it the most and would be most likely to care for it and not throw it away, and the pleasure of owning a piece of your collection would be distributed among a large number of future collectors.

20th Oct 2013 12:58 UTCSusan Robinson

We thought about this many years ago, and our collection was sold to the Canadian Museum of Nature, Ottawa, Ontario, Canada. Since retirement, we have no desire to build another collection, but to volunteer our time and work on college collections that need support. If we want to see some of our minerals again, the trip is only a hour's drive away.

Everyone who collects something and builds up a collection over time, should seriously consider what they want to have happen to it if something should happen to them. We've known several collectors who accumulated a houseful of minerals, most of them self-collected, and unprocessed, which were given away or thrown out by family, who didn't want to deal with the work it takes to find another "home" for them.

Don't expect that most museums will willingly take your minerals, either. Many museums today do not have room to spare, and if your minerals don't fit into their mission statement, specialty, or regional mineralogy, then your chances of the museum accepting them is low.

Planning for what you would like to have done with your collection and putting it in writing in a will, brings not only peace of mind to the collector, but to his family and friends, too.

20th Oct 2013 13:13 UTCSusan Robinson

I would suggest that the articles in the Mineralogical Record by lawyer Francis Allegra should be read. They cover these topics, including taxes, and provide good guidance.

20th Oct 2013 13:32 UTCSusan Robinson

Here are some articles which cover the topic very well: Recommendations regarding the handling and sale of your collection (by Wendell E. Wilson & Don Newsome) 41: 553-554 v. 41, n. 6, 2010; MR vol 40, pp. 193-202; MR vol. 21, pp. 511-513.

20th Oct 2013 14:53 UTCBob Harman

Much has been written and said about this aspect of collecting so ALFREDO'S, SUSAN'S and my responses may only be the start of more to come.


Some thoughts and observations. There are collections and then there are collections and then there are "collections". The first collections are the high end ones, well known and well displayed and loved by not only the collector, but by the collecting community and dealers. These will be recirculated thru dealers and given into museums with no problem after the collector's death. The family basically knows what to do when the time comes in the vast majority of these situations. No problem.


Then there are collections.....the second type.....in my previous paragraph. These are much more common in numbers than the previous situation. These are the middle end specimens usually displayed and labeled on shelves or kept in boxes by the long time collectors. Most of these collectors are known to the other local collectors thru clubs and local shows. Families and friends, in many cases, know what to do when the time comes and in my experience not too many of these collections will be just discarded. They will be recirculated or donated to schools etc. The families will find some venue to handle these specimens. Sooooo, become known to the others in your local collecting community and be club members and attend local and regional shows. It will then become easy and natural to appropriately recirculate and dispose of your collection when the time comes. If these common sense steps are taken, disposing of your collection should be no problem when that time comes.


Then there are the "collections".....the third type in my previous paragraph. These, in my opinion, are the real problem ones. Usually large self collected hoards of mostly unlabeled low to middling end local rocks and those collected during vacation trips, mostly remaining in boxes and buckets in out buildings, garages and the basement. Few are cleaned or well displayed and when the time comes the family is left with the unenviable task of deciding exactly what to do with the large and weighty accumulation of rocks. Few dealers or museums or schools want to spend time and energy sorting out what is in these large accumulations, usually of unlabeled lower end rocks. These are the "collections" that are most routinely discarded after the time has come. To prevent this demise of what you collected, clean, label and display the best and cull the rest. Become a club member and attend local rock shows. Become known to the local rock collecting community by showing off your finds. It will then become a more "natural process" to appropriately recirculate the better portions of your collection rather than discard much of your collection. You control the future of your collection if common sense steps are taken while you are able.


As to me personally. I have a large hi end Indiana geode collection and am well known to the local collecting community and the folks at the Indiana State Museum. A group of my best geode specimens are now in the process of being donated to the museum (some of these can be viewed on the "Midwest Geode" thread). Most will be displayed (but no guarantee) as the museum enlarges and renovates. My plan seems similar to what SUSAN R stated in her post.


The best advise I can give anyone is to care for your collected specimens with labeling and display. Discuss all this with your families, friends, and become known to other collectors; the rest will take care of itself when that time comes. CHEERS.......BOB

20th Oct 2013 15:32 UTCKC Dalby

I have read the articles in the Min Record and find myself thinking more of having my collection sold. Donations to museums or higher educational institutions are apt to be locked away where no one sees them or theived by the student body or sold off to the "friends" of the institution, unless provisions are made in a willed collection.


I am in my sixties, so collecting via armchair is still a passion, but, most importantly, is too make sure a full catalog of the collection is kept up to date. This not only includes labeling each specimen, but also keeping the original labels, describing the piece in size, color, crystal habitat, mine found, etc and includding a picture of each. A main ingrediant is to also place a value of each piece, especially if no one else in the family has an interest which is a most common sort of thing. Yearly, you might also want to reevaluate the value, depending on observation of prices you see at mineral shows etc.


I will most likely designate my son to liquidate the collection in my will-he is the only one to have had a passsive interest and I will also include who gets the monies earned after disposition, preferably family.


KC Dalby

20th Oct 2013 16:22 UTCSusan Robinson

K C Dalby brought up something that is so very important re collections. A cataloged collection is always more valuable to me than one that is not cataloged. The numbers glued on the specimens are meaningless if there is no written record both labels and a catalog) with them. I've seen many very good minerals whose localities were unknown, since there was no label and no catalog - it's a shame. I know that collecting minerals in the field and at shows is the fun part for many of us, and having to catalog them is work, but it is important that it be done. It can save a lot of headaches and disappointment and provide better value to your collection if it is properly documented.

20th Oct 2013 17:18 UTCUwe Ludwig

It is not best idea to spend your collection to a museum or university during your lifetime if you have not an extraordinarily collection. Mostly the collection moves in the storehouse of this institute or the institute are generally not interested in your specimens.


The best solution is not to think about the way of your collection after you passed away. You will not have the opportunity to be happy or sad about the destiny of your specimens. Be delight in your collection until your last breath and hope that your surviving dependants know the worth of the specimens. If not – it is no more your problem.


Rgds.

Uwe Ludwig

20th Oct 2013 17:51 UTCSpencer Ivan Mather

When I pass on, my large collection is going to the Dudley Museum, I have already made plans for this with this museum, where it will be on display..


Spencer.

20th Oct 2013 18:12 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Even better than numbers glued to a specimen is a locality name glued to a specimen. Catalogues can get lost. An identification can always be done again, but a lost locality makes a specimen almost valueless.

20th Oct 2013 18:49 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Then there's the horrible story, hopefully apocryphal, of the guy who comes back from a show to a disinterested spouse and says " As usual I got a dozen Tsumeb specimens for $50." When the guy dies and friends inquire about the collection the spouse says, "He told me his most expensive specimens were a few dollars so I already threw it all out" A catalogue with some notion of value is most important as others have said.

20th Oct 2013 20:47 UTCRoy Starkey 🌟 Manager

This is a really important topic, and one to which I have given much thought personally. As already stated, most museums do not have the space, or resources to adequately care for and accession / incorporate large "amateur" collections. Quite apart from the practicalities, there would inevitably be much duplication of material, without much added value.


My considered opinion is that any truly "important" specimens e.g. a unique find from a locality, or particularly good examples of any given species, which has some particular merit, or perhaps really well-documented locality suites collected over a protracted period of time e.g. from a now defunct (but previously working) quarry DOES merit being offered to a museum or similar institution e.g a University Geology Department. Ideally such material should be clearly identified, and the agreed donation / accession formalised in advance of the collector's demise, complete with detailed instructions as to what should be done when the time comes.


Most of the specimens in "amateur" collections however, are probably best "put back into the pond" for others to enjoy, and I think the best way of doing this is either via a catalogue sale (circulated to interested parties), or where the quality is sufficient, and a suitably large audience can be gathered, a privately organised auction is much the best means of disposal. This returns revenue to the collector or his family, and makes the material available for the collecting community and newcomers alike. Such auctions are really "fun" events, and we've seen several of them n the UK in recent years.


I have been involved in the disposal of five large amateur collections (minerals, and associated mineralogy libraries) over the past ten years or so and have learned much in the process. The MOST important point for collectors to take on board (and apologies for preaching) is to affix a label stating the LOCALITY to the specimen. There is huge risk where catalogues and accession data rely on tying up a number (meaningless in all respects without the catalogue or paper label) to a separate catalogue or label. It is always possible to find out what a specimen is, but you cannot with certainty assign a locality. I am now addressing this deficiency in my own collection (and have been doing so now for a few years, since it became clear that this is really the only effective solution). I have worked with various museum collections and it is clear that the really valuable and useful specimens are those that have an old label stating the locality, actually glued to the specimen.


I believe that if all collectors adopted this simple practice we would be doing a great service to the science of mineralogy and to future generations of collectors. Generally speaking a museum will not accession material that is not well-provenanced (I have direct experience of this problem during the disposals mentioned previously).


In the UK we are very fortunate to have the National Grid reference system which can accurately define a locality down to 100 or even 10 metres if one chooses to use it. In these days of low cost GPS receivers there really is no excuse for not including the grid reference (or Latitude & Longitude for non UK areas) on the label affixed to the specimen.


Maybe this good practice could become a Mindat standard for people to aspire to?


Roy

20th Oct 2013 21:14 UTCGeorge Creighton

Hi

Find this thread very interesting.

As previously stated have discussed this situation with my children and with Mr. Ronald Werner of the " fennefoss geological museum evje norway " and have agreed to donate my collection to this fine institution free of charge on my demise.

Should say the collection is very local ( setesdal ) and self found.


Regards

20th Oct 2013 22:10 UTCBob Harman

Let me expound a bit further on a few of the previous points. Label and catalog !!! As several of us mentioned, it is of utmost importance to do this for each and every specimen. Any of several ways is acceptable, just as long as the identification is accurate and physically long lasting with each individual specimen.


As to museum donations. This really depends on what you have and the specific museum(s) involved. Very hi end specimens from all over the world will, for all practical purposes, only end up in mineral collections of larger world class museums. These museums have acquisition funds to buy specimens or the donor will receive tax incentives to donate......just look at the museum donor labels accompanying the donated specimens. If the collector has a focused collection, local and state museums certainly are interested in appropriate specimens. Again acquisition funds or tax incentives (in the US anyway) for donations are available. Yes, middling specimens might go into the store rooms or gift shop, but better specimens have a good chance for display. I know that much of my personal Indiana material is of display quality and part of the donation agreements states as such. When contemplating a museum donation, have a series of frank discussions with the museum curators and personnel about the specific points of sale or donation with a time frame of physical specimen transfer, display, tax incentives, etc. Specimens should not just be naively "donated", but donated with appropriate parameters for all involved. The rest of my collection, I have no problem being sold to both collectors and dealers.


Finally a further word about low end large accumulations of rocks. As I mentioned, I believe these are the major cause of families discarding collected material when "that time comes". When I was the president of the Midwest Chapter Friends of Mineralogy, I took several calls from individuals wanting to dispose of loved ones collections. ALL those calls involved hoarded and largely unlabeled bulky rocks collected, but never curated (not 1 call involved a cared for true mineral collection; the families knew what to do with those collections). Anyway, I would look them over, if time permitted, but I was really at a loss as to what to tell those families. I gave them the names of others who might be interested, but no one REALLY had the energy to be interested in that type low end and unlabeled material (usually it was tons!! of rock). The lesson is: it is quality and not quantity. Label and display the best and cull the rest while you are able. Become known to other collectors and disposing of your collection will be easy when "that time comes". CHEERS.......BOB

21st Oct 2013 04:46 UTCCliff Vermont

Unless prohibited by financial hardship, I will carefully pack each individual specimen along with its display mount and full specimen information in an individual box. Each box will then be hidden or buried somewhere in the USA that is readily accessable to the public. Then a series of clues leading to the location of each specimen will be published in the MR. The thrill of discovery passed on. What could be better than this when my time arrives?

21st Oct 2013 08:35 UTCKC Dalby

To all:


I have followed this thread and the prvious discussions through MinRecord,etc and find that I might just have to edit my previous message.


A lot of good advice has been given, but let's face it, it is all from a personal perspective. I feel there are two parameters to go by. First, make the decision as to what happens to your collection NOW, while you are still able to have influence as to what will become of your collection when you go to the rock pile in the sky AND, bee happy with that decision knowing that you have covered all the basis, from labels to catalogs and duplicate copies and copies with wills and advising executors of your decision etc etc. MAKE THE DECISION NOW- you can always change your mind later and be at peace with that decision. It will be the right decision because you made it!! What we have all been doing is expounding on our best advice on what we have encountered over the years. Despite the best recommendation, the final choice is yours.


Second and probably most important is to continue to enjoy your collection, acquiring new pieces however it is that you chose to acquire them and maybe, just maybe, you will have a chance to get some young child interested in this wonderful hobby that we all enjoy regardless of why we do it.

Let's pass on the enjoyment we have received to another, young or old! What can be a most rewarding experience is to give away a piece from your collection to someone to get them involved or at a swap/sell and see that youngster who "oohs" and "awws" and give them a specimen explaining to keep the label and how to keep it safe. The utter surprise from the parent and complete awe exihibted from the child is worth more than you will ever be allowed to enjoy in the disposition of your collection.


It is your decision and pass on your passion, exuberance and love for the hobby to the next generation who will be asking the same questions we are discussing today some time in the future.


KC Dalby

21st Oct 2013 16:30 UTCDave Owen

To Cliff; I was high in the Santa Rita mts. south of Tucson digging a dump. I got excited when I started finding Wulfenite that looked like Fench Mine material then other strange stuff but then cabbed Turquoise.Someone had taken the time to take at least the part of their collection they didn't want and put it on the dump for others to find. An idea if money is not an issue is to donate the collection to a local rock club to dispose of either to members or as a fund raising project.Anyone have any feelings about recording info on one of the online mineral records programs? Seems like disks could be made of the whole collection and distributed as needed.

23rd Oct 2013 18:11 UTCOlivier L.

Unless for financial reasons I'm forced to sell my collection

during my retirement, I will donate it to science as long as

it remains a permanent exposition and/or it really contributes

to education and scientific work.

23rd Oct 2013 18:54 UTCTim Jokela Jr

Very, very important topic.


Trick is to get the collection dealt with while you still have your marbles. Alzheimer's is the enemy. DO NOT WAIT!


When the time comes, cut the cord. Call in a dealer you trust, and let him take it all away.


The majority of collectors, I think, place far more value on their collection than will any museum. Unless you're wealthy, and spending tens of thousands on rocks each month, the museum already has better, and will not be interested in 99% of your stuff. This is a painful realization, but it's the truth. Give it to a university? You'd better do your research first! Mineralogy is a dying science in North America, mineralogists and prof's are worked to death, who is going to curate your stuff?


Whatever you do, try to stop mindlessly accumulating, and actually put some work into what you've built up. Get it all labelled at least. Detail what you want done in your will, or at least make sure your heirs know what kind of dollar value you've blown on the stuff.


I just looked at a "collection" yesterday. A very kind lady was sure her parents had a wonderful hoard, after all they'd been to Bancroft and Alberta and Vancouver and Arizona!. I had to tell her that there were no crystals, nothing in boxes, nothing labelled, hence zero dollar value.... probably half a ton of rock, all crap.


Do your kids a favor. Winnow. Sort. Figure out what's good and treat it properly. Don't leave them a big mess to deal with!

29th Oct 2013 01:19 UTCCasper Voogt

when the time comes, instead of being buried with dirt, insist on being buried under your mineral collection, all properly labelled of course. Who says you can't take it with you?

30th Oct 2013 11:45 UTCRui Nunes 🌟 Expert

Carpe diem :)-D

30th Oct 2013 14:01 UTCChristian Auer 🌟 Expert

In fact I have no clue what to do with xx thousands of micromounts.

At least all is well labeled and documented. So the scientific value is probably much higher than the commercial.


The most important fact - I have and had great fun with them.

They remember me on deep friendships, great tours, risks and luck ... on my youth a long time ago.


So I guess they will end up in the 18th cellar floor of a museum, put there and never reopened again.

30th Oct 2013 18:56 UTCJason Evans

I dont think any of my minerals are that important or good enough examples to be in a museum so my plan is to let my nieces sell them, hopefully they will go to someone who will look after them, as they are more than just minerals specimens, they are part of who I am.

30th Oct 2013 21:35 UTCRoberto Bosi

My unpretentious collection surely not comprises samples that deserve to be exposed nor specimens so rare to justify in-depth studies...And sometimes I think: maybe so much the better! Often nobody knows the destiny of a sample acquired by a museum; maybe it will end in a dusty depository, maybe it will lost, maybe it will stolen...Some years ago I've bought from a friend/collector/dealer about 2000 micromounts and hundreds of others specimens (a large number of them appears in my photogallery) whose first owner was passed away. Even these samples were not particularly interesting (but the 20-30% are still undetermined, then everything's possible), they gave me a great joy, a further occasion to pay attention to a world both small and really wonderful. Hoping to have not disillusioned the late first owner of that little natural patrimony and thinking well about, it would be selfish to refuse the same joy to a future collector, so surely I'll orient myself in this bearing.

31st Oct 2013 05:33 UTCChristopher O'Neill

Well folks,


I have already begun this process about 6 or 7 years ago. Not that I am very old (55) and will hopefully be around for a while, but after about 40+ years of collecting I don’t feel the need to retain all my specimens until my dying day. So I began downsizing my collection and yes, I still field collect and acquire new specimens. I have currently moved (sold or given away) a couple of thousand specimens with a couple of thousand more to go. I don’t think my meager systematic collection would appeal to any museum. I also believe most museums can’t sustain entire collections donated to them – they keep the best and discard the rest. I’d rather see my collection spread far and wide to as many people as possible, with each person acquiring what is most interesting to them. As for whatever is left over ”in the end”, maybe a couple of hundred specimens, I’ll probably pick some folks in the MINDAT community who I think would most appreciate what is left and leave it at that.


Chris


P.S. Don’t sent me any private emails asking about any specimens for sale :-)
 
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