Learning Center What is a mineral?The most common minerals on earth Information for Educators Mindat Articles The Elements The Rock H. Currier Digital Library Geologic Time

Minerals by Properties Minerals by Chemistry Advanced Locality Search Random Mineral Random Locality Search by minID Localities Near Me Search Articles Search Glossary More Search Options

The Mindat Manual Add a New Photo Rate Photos Locality Edit Report Coordinate Completion Report Add Glossary Item

Mining Companies Statistics Users Mineral Museums Clubs & Organizations Mineral Shows & Events The Mindat Directory Device Settings The Mineral Quiz

Photo Search Photo Galleries Search by Color New Photos Today New Photos Yesterday Members' Photo Galleries Past Photo of the Day Gallery Photography

Discussions

💬 Home 🔎 Search 📅 Latest

╳Discussions

💬 Home 🔎 Search 📅 Latest

Groups

Recent Images in Discussions

GeneralLazurite with tugtupite from Afghanistan/Pakistan?

1st Mar 2020 18:57 UTCNick Gilly

Hi all.

Yesterday I went to the Kempton Park Rock, Gem & Bead Show, and one of the Pakistani dealers had lazurite in matrix with vivid pinkish red areas. I asked him what the pink material was and he said what sounded like 'toctopite", which didn't make much sense to me. Thinking about it later though, I realised he may have meant 'tugtupite'. I didn't buy any because I wasn't sure what it was at the time.

Has anyone else come across this material? I presume if genuine its a new find as it's the first I've seen of it. The deep royal blue of the lazurite and the vivid pinkish red made for a striking colour contrast. Would tugtupite and lazurite or other blue feldspathoids occur together in the same geologic environment?

Any more info would be very much appreciated.

Thanks.

1st Mar 2020 19:09 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

More info: we most regret the specimens that we don't buy.

1st Mar 2020 19:53 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

I would be skeptical that it's tugtupite because that's a Be-mineral that appears to be limited to peralkaline nepheline syenite pegmatites that are, well, also enriched in Be. Lazurite, on the other hand, seems to be limited to marbles, although its feldspathoid relatives (particularly sodalite and nosean) are also found in igneous rocks. Although Be minerals (specifically beryl) are reported from the general vicinity of the Afghan lazurite occurrence, they're not in the marble but rather in adjacent quartzo-feldspathic rocks.

That said, a variety of other feldspathoids are found in those lazurite-bearing marbles, including nepheline, sodalite, afghanite (which is blue) and some rarer ones as well. And some of that sodalite is supposed to show the photochromism that Greenland tugtupite is famous for (although I don't think it's in red, but in purple?), although you didn't mention if that property was present in the sample the dealer showed you. Also note that while sodalite is typically blue, it doesn't have to be blue... pink and purple sodalite, among some other less common colors, are also known. It would have been interesting to see a photo of the specimen. Vivid pinkish-red isn't really an expected color from among the minerals in the Sar-e-Sang list; since tugtupite is such a sought-after mineral, a cynic might want to verify it's not "red-Sharpie-ite".

As an aside, while it's great we can filter mineral lists at localities by element right on the locality page, this is a good example where it would also be useful to do the same with physical and optical properties.

1st Mar 2020 20:28 UTCNick Gilly

Thanks guys. I didn't buy it because it just looked quite weird and wasn't 100% sure of whether it was misidentified or treated in some way such as irradiation or as Frank says 'red-Sharpie-ite', lol. Maybe next time I go I'll buy a piece if there's any available and it isn't too pricey.

1st Mar 2020 21:03 UTCDavid Carter 🌟 Expert

Nick Gilly ✉️

Could the dealer perhaps have been saying Phlogopite, which can be a reddish brown colour and is most certainly associated with Lazurite from Afghanistan?

1st Mar 2020 21:06 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Without even a picture no way to opinion but let me comment something:

Years ago I received a dravite sample from Koksha Valley that intrigued me for a while. Matrix is a kind of mica, maybe muscovite, and part of it shows a bright pink color, I was wondering if manganese could turn the mica to this so saturated color. Finally sent it for analyzing and after some testing it turned out that was dyed. Can see details in attached photo captions.

1st Mar 2020 21:48 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

That's quite interesting José. It seems odd someone would just arbitrarily dye bits of it, since presumably the tourmaline is the focus of the specimen, and we already know nobody cares about what's in the matrix (LOL)... perhaps someone had tried to unsuccessfully write some field notes on it in red marker?

Last year I bought a sample of the blue "fluor-dravite" in mica (presumably muscovite) also from the Koksha Valley, but none of the mica on that specimen was pink (at least that I recall or noticed... not sure with my bad color-vision small areas of pink would have caught my attention). I actually have a thin section of the sample prepared but haven't gotten around yet to looking at it in more detail, either optically or by microprobe (primarily to verify the tourmaline chemistry). There are little sapphires hiding in it as well, apparent in the thin section:

https://www.rockptx.com/fkm-251-to-fkm-275/#FKM-268

1st Mar 2020 22:36 UTCNick Gilly

Hi José. There's a specimen of dark blue-green dravite on eBay right now with presumed sapphire grains and hot pink grains in the rock. Not sure what to make of that. See attached pic.

1st Mar 2020 21:11 UTCEd Clopton 🌟 Expert

Tugtupite is highly fluorescent in SWUV, so that would be (would have been) a way to check if you had a short-wave light in your hip pocket.

1st Mar 2020 21:53 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Many years ago I purchased a specimen with nice crystals of Lazurite in a marble matrix. Close to the larges Lazurite crystal there is an area with a pink colour which seems to be caused by small grains in the matrix. Because of a strong UV-response (SW) I suspected it could be Tugtupite - but at the same time I had found a sodalite-group mineral with a stable pink colour (not the "hackmanite"-variety) in an alkaline pegmatite in the Larvik/Langesundsfjord area that turned out to be sodalite and not tugtupite (XRD). I have therefore labeled the mineral from Afghanistan as "Tugtupite?". I have not had time to make any further tests on this material and therefore have not updates the list of minerals in Mindat. I have looked at the specimen again and enclose a photo showing a strong UV-response in the area with the strong pink mineral of a colour I have seen both in tugtupites and sodalites...

Knut

1st Mar 2020 22:33 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Just to add a bit more color (ha ha), while I've never checked my Afghan lazurite-bearing marble under UV, under the microprobe the abundant forsterite in the material shows a bright orange cathodoluminescence (and the also abundant diopside shows a dark blue cathodoluminescence). The lazurite and accompanying calcite, apatite, pyrite, phlogopite and nepheline didn't show any noteworthy effects under the electron beam. Also, however, none of the minerals in the fine-grained rock appeared pink (to the best of my interpretation) in hand sample.

I think UV response of minerals should be treated just like daylight colors of minerals... sometimes characteristic (as Franklin/Sterling Hill collectors can attest), but sometimes not (for example in ruby, which is always presumed fluorescent but may not be if trace Fe levels are too high). One must always couple such non-definitive observations with other tests, and consider the geologic constraints as well, in rare mineral identification. While one can never say never (sometimes geology finds a way), tugtupite in a marble seems unlikely.

1st Mar 2020 22:00 UTCNick Gilly

From what I remember I think the pink stuff fluoresced orange/red in UV. It didn't really look like mica.

Knut that is interesting. Maybe this is the same material that the dealer had. I'm starting to wish I'd bought a piece now lol.

1st Mar 2020 22:03 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Here is the same specimen using the mobile phone with flash (There is a stronger pink colour in ordinary light).

Knut

1st Mar 2020 22:48 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

my suspicion would be sodalite (hackmanite?; and Sinkankas' Gemstone and Mineral Databook also tabulates that sodalite can show pink and orange fluorescence in LWUV [no mention of SWUV for those colors among likely candidates, except for pink in haüyne], and orange for "lapis lazuli").

Pretty rock in any case...

2nd Mar 2020 01:42 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Could it be something like clinothulite or wollastonite?

2nd Mar 2020 08:35 UTCKnut Eldjarn 🌟 Manager

Frank,

As mentioned I also suspect sodalite after the XRD of a stable pink mineral from the Larvik area in Norway turned out to be sodalite and not tugtupite. But I disagree with the use of the term "hackmanite" for the mineral because the pink colour is not enhanced by the use of UV-light and it has not faded after many years exposure to daylight. I would just call it a pink sodalite...

The UV-response is not diagnostic. I have seen different shades of yellow, orange and red - even strong green as UV-response in sodalites using my Superbright SW.

Knut

2nd Mar 2020 08:41 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

pink sodalite sounds like a reasonable ID... :-)

2nd Mar 2020 22:11 UTCIan Nicastro

I have several things to add to this discussion:

-In a previous thread about the tourmaline from north of Koksha Valley I hypothesized that Jose's samples were experimentally dyed by local dealers to see if they could make the matrix look like lepidolite, but the haphazard nature of the dying doesn't make sense to me.

-I have previously discovered some dyed Sodalite var. Hackmanite specimens from Koksha Valley: the Hackmanite crystals had been removed from the matrix and had a dye or paint applied to the rear of the crystal (that was soluble in acetone) only where the crystal contacted the matrix, and then the crystals were glued back into the matrix to give them a more noticeable body color even when they had not been exposed to UV to initiate tenebrescence.

-Where are you folks getting the fluor-dravite info from concerning the blue Tourmaline from Koksha Valley, is it published somewhere? I had samples tested at GIA back in 2016 via LA-ICP-MS (mass spec) and we arrived at dravite-uvite series (page 428:

https://www.gia.edu/doc/Gems-Gemology-Winter-2016v4.pdf ) yet at Tucson this year I saw

Gunnar Färber had them labeled as fluor-dravite, and when I mentioned I had them tested too he basically told me, the analysis we had done must be wrong.

-Nick I have a feeling the dealer you talked to just got confused between Tugtupite and Sodalite var. Hackmanite, because they behave similarly. I assume it was Hackmanite, or maybe the pink Sodalite that was mentioned above.

2nd Mar 2020 22:33 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Ian Nicastro ✉️

https://www.gia.edu/doc/Gems-Gemology-Winter-2016v4.pdf ) yet at Tucson this year I saw

Gunnar Färber had them labeled as fluor-dravite, and when I mentioned I had them tested too he basically told me, the analysis we had done must be wrong.

Hi Ian,

My sample actually is from Gunnar and I have a thin section already prepared... I just haven't the time to take it over to the microprobe yet, but I'll move it up in the queue and report back once I get some data... perhaps this month if I can juggle a microprobe day with my other more pressing commitments.

As an aside, I don't think LA-ICP-MS is necessarily the best technique for assessing major element concentrations of minerals, since attaining sufficient precision can be problematic. I suspect F in particular may be especially difficult to measure well because of low ionization efficiency and non-trivial mass interferences.

3rd Mar 2020 00:45 UTCAndrew Debnam 🌟

Hello Ian, did Gunnar have these specimens tested to support his contention F was present?

3rd Mar 2020 08:39 UTCIan Nicastro

Frank, I agree that microprobe is likely the best way to test these because of the likely F content, I will be curious to see what your results show. Andrew, he seemed busy and so I didn't really press the matter further, I don't know if he tested them or if someone else did!

3rd Mar 2020 10:08 UTCIan Nicastro

I also wanted to add that this area that produces the blue Dravite also produces Sapphire crystals as I am sure most of you are aware of (since sometimes they are on the same mica matrix), anyhow I have observed that most of these Sapphires from north of Koksha Valley are weakly radioactive (i.e. at least 2x over baseline levels). I've never found any corundum from anywhere else to be detectably radioactive with my ludlum model 3 counter. I feel this would be really interesting for someone to follow up on as to why they are weakly radioactive... is it from inclusions of a radioactive mineral or what?

3rd Mar 2020 10:45 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

my thin section does intersect one good-sized sapphire (see my link above for the white light and crossed polarizers scans of the thin section... the sapphire is at the bottom of both images), so I'll be sure to also look at the corundum and mica (and any smaller hidden accessory minerals) in addition to the tourmaline, when I get this sample on the microprobe... hopefully within the next 3-4 weeks.

4th Mar 2020 20:54 UTCIan Nicastro

Thank you!

21st Mar 2020 08:13 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

I noted a couple of weeks ago I anticipated being on the microprobe in the near future. As it turned out, my microprobe time ended up being this past Thursday evening (I took over from a student who didn't want to stay late), and I included the deep blue Koksha Valley "fluor-dravite" in my queue.

Here's my report on it: The tourmaline was almost un-zoned, but a very weakly higher z (higher average atomic number) thin band was present near the rim. Here are the results of three microprobe spots:

(spot 1: near center of a large crystal):

SiO₂ (wt%) 36.68

TiO₂ 0.02

Al₂O₃ 33.77

B₂O₃ (calc.) 10.76

Cr₂O₃ 0.01

FeO* 0.81

MnO 0.01

NiO 0.01

MgO 10.55

CaO 2.60

SrO 0.04

Na₂O 1.54

K₂O 0.01

F 0.26

H₂O (calc.) 2.98

-O=F -0.11

total 99.94

Normalization of spot 1 assumes: ∑(T+Y+Z)=15, B=3.00 apfu, Li=0.00 apfu. Critical estimated site fillings include: ^A(Na_0.48Ca_0.45◻_0.07), ^Y(Mg_2.54Al_0.35Fe^T_0.11) and ^W(O_0.65[OH]_0.21F_0.13) for assumed Fe³⁺/∑Fe = 0.00... O apfu increases and [OH] apfu decreases if Fe³⁺/∑Fe > 0.00. This composition corresponds to just being on the oxy-dravite side of the oxy-dravite/oxy-uvite nomenclature boundary.

(spot 2: thin higher z near-rim on same large crystal):

SiO₂ (wt%) 37.65
TiO₂ 0.03

ZrO₂ 0.01
Al₂O₃ 30.30

Ga₂O₃ 0.02
B₂O₃ (calc.) 10.95
FeO* 1.76
MnO 0.01
NiO 0.01
MgO 12.09
CaO 2.95
SrO 0.07
Na₂O 1.44
K₂O 0.02
F 0.39

Cl 0.01
H₂O (calc.) 3.00
-O=F+Cl -0.17
total 100.54

Normalization of spot 2 assumes: ∑(T+Y+Z)=15, B=3.00 apfu, Li=0.00 apfu. Critical estimated site fillings include: ^A(Ca_0.51Na_0.45Sr_0.01◻_0.03), ^Y(Mg_2.75Fe^T_0.24) and ^W(O_0.57[OH]_0.23F_0.20) for assumed Fe³⁺/∑Fe = 0.00... O apfu increases and [OH] apfu decreases if Fe³⁺/∑Fe > 0.00. This composition corresponds to oxy-uvite.

(spot 3: small irregular tourmaline intergrown with corundum):

SiO₂ (wt%) 37.95

Al₂O₃ 33.10

B₂O₃ (calc.) 10.88

Cr₂O₃ 0.01

FeO* 0.76

NiO 0.01

MgO 10.86

CaO 1.02

SrO 0.03

Na₂O 2.06

K₂O 0.01

F 0.03

H₂O (calc.) 3.38

-O=F -0.01

total 100.11

Normalization of spot 3 assumes: ∑(T+Y+Z)=15, B=3.00 apfu, Li=0.00 apfu. Critical estimated site fillings include: ^A(Na_0.64Ca_0.17◻_0.19), ^Y(Mg_2.59Al_0.31Fe^T_0.10) and ^W([OH]_0.60O_0.38F_0.02) for assumed Fe³⁺/∑Fe = 0.00... O apfu increases and [OH] apfu decreases if Fe³⁺/∑Fe > 0.00. This composition corresponds to dravite. Even if Fe³⁺/∑Fe were increased to 1.00, ^WO still stays under 0.50 apfu (but barely), so the composition remains dravite regardless of the Fe³⁺ content one wants to assume.

So the tourmaline compositions in my thin section are largely oxy-dravite/dravite, with a thin not-quite-outer rim of oxy-uvite. Fluorine is uniformly very low across all compositions, so unfortunately Gunnar's "fluor-dravite" is not present, in at least my thin section of the blue tourmaline. Incidentally, although the tourmaline was quite blue in hand sample, it was essentially colorless in thin section... same with the sapphire.

The mica in the sample is entirely phlogopite... no muscovite is present, although minor amounts of chlorite are present, in part as minor alteration of the phlogopite but also as larger scattered crystals. Almost all the chlorite is clinochlore... one tiny patch is Fe-rich chlorite admixed with "limonite" was observed. Like the tourmaline, the phlogopite is also not F-rich... the mica's "OH"-site filling is typically around ([OH]_1.92F_0.07Cl_0.01).

Corundum (sapphire) is present... displays bright blue cathodoluminescence under the electron beam. The Fe content is 0.11 wt%; Ti is 0.02 wt%.

One odd cluster of several elongated dolomite crystals is present... Ca_1.00(Mg_0.95Fe²⁺_0.05Mn_0.01)[CO₃]₂.

Scattered tiny zircons up to ~50 μm are present. One contained a single 2 μm uraninite inclusion, so uraninite may be the source of the radiation Ian detected? However, the host zircon grain was included in mica, not in the corundum. But maybe other samples also have additional uraninite hosted in other phases?

4th Mar 2020 20:34 UTCJasun D. McAvoy Expert

For what its worth... I have found miscellaneous pink areas on Paki/Afghani material over the years. As it turns out there is a particular kind of toilet paper used to wrap specimens that is colored a deep pink and can impart this color (especially if the material is damp, like after it is freshly cleaned)

This explains the seemingly random, subtle areas of "dye".

It is very coarse paper and, as it was related to me by a respected Pakastani dealer, that part of the reason they have such toilet paper is because many people don't use it (they use the much cleaner bidet)

4th Mar 2020 20:55 UTCIan Nicastro

That is really useful info Jasun, thank you!

4th Mar 2020 22:06 UTCNick Gilly

Thanks Jasun. The hot pink areas on the specimen I looked at did look a bit strange. Instead of discrete crystals or grains there were diffuse edges. Hmmm.

5th Mar 2020 13:45 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert

Dyes are very fluorescent, I think in all cases discussed or displayed here you have some surface "contamination" that may have locally soaked into the grain boundaries and stained them. Getting it only along specimen edges it very typical of what Jason said about the colored paper, especially if it got wet. It doesn't take much dye to color a specimen, intentionally or not, cuz the grains will refract the color around. But it is very difficult to remove, so such pieces on the dealer table will now have to be promoted as if the color is another mineral otherwise they are junk.

6th Mar 2022 10:42 UTCNick Gilly

An update to this.

I went to the Kempton Park Rock & Gem Show for the first time since I started this thread, and, once again, one of the Pakistani dealers had lazurite specimens with pink spots and areas. This time it was clearer: he said that the pink was indeed tugtupite, as found in Greenland. Whatever it is it fluoresced pink with the 365 nm LWUV torch I'd brought with me.

From a quick Google it appears that a specimen has recently sold on Etsy:

https://www.etsy.com/uk/listing/946163161/lazurite-tugtupite-and-pyrite-mineral?show_sold_out_detail=1&ref=nla_listing_details

I didn't end up buying any though, as I still wasn't 100% convinced it was tugtupite or if it had been treated.

Has anyone else come across this material in the last couple of years and bought any? If so, did you have it tested?

Thanks.

26th Apr 2024 11:01 UTCRupert Harrison

Yes! I came across some at a collection sale. The colour contrast caught my eye! The label said Azurite & Tugtupite from Kola in Russia! I've seen enough Lazurite to recognise it when I see it, but as it was attractive and very cheap, I bought it with a view to tracing it's origin at some point!

I've seen various dealers selling similar on-line, stating that it is from a small recent find in Kunar, Afghanistan, but I take that with a pinch of salt! The search continues!

Mindat.org is an outreach project of the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy, a 501(c)(3) not-for-profit organization.
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: May 4, 2024 11:01:16

Go to top of page