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Fakes & FraudsPoison Green Moldavite
9th Dec 2009 16:02 UTCKristi Hugs
Here is the website:
http://www.arkadiancollection.com/articles/what-is-activated-moldavite
My gut says "FAKE!" but I want yall's expert opinion--
thanks!!
9th Dec 2009 16:18 UTCDonald Vaughn
9th Dec 2009 17:32 UTCAnonymous User
Philippe.
9th Dec 2009 17:38 UTCDavid Von Bargen Manager
to a sacred site, called Bhrugu Aranya, in the Tatra Mountains of southern Poland. It is a strong energy point with a direct connection to the moldavite source.
Hmmm. I wonder if it was a nuclear waste site.
If you read between the lines, it appears that they heat treat the moldavites (and add who knows what).
9th Dec 2009 17:48 UTCJake Sawyer
First off, I feel pretty insulted as the proud owner of Arkadian Collection. Before you go attacking hardworking, honest people please do a little investigation in the future. We have been sourcing Moldavite directly from the Czech Republic since 1998 and wholesale to over 200 stores in the U.K., Switzerland and the United States. We also have a large following online. I wouldn't be in business all these years if I was into 'pseudo-science' and fake stones. As a passionate enthusiast of rocks and gems I'm very insulted.
Just because we chose to address the subjective metaphysical properties of rocks and gems, this does not make us any less knowledgeable or trust worthy. If you'd like to come out and make accusations then please bring it to my door. Any of our products can be certified by a gemologist and we never use treated or synthetic stones of any kind. If customers are ever dissatisfied we give full refunds without question. (this to me doesn't sound like the workings of a fraud)
We believe in transparency and trust and we have a customer base that will back that up.
Sincerely,
Jacob Sawyer
www.arkadiancollection.com
9th Dec 2009 18:09 UTCMichaelV.
Michael
9th Dec 2009 18:25 UTC
Pseudoscience are domains which claim to have scientific validity, often using twisted scientific jargon to give credibility to their mis/disinformation. So even if you are not personally into pseudoscience, you propone it by including the crystal power information on your website. As to the worth of these crystal healing claims, show me one perfectly objective, properly conducted , double-blind study in favour of the existence of this phenomenon. You will not find one. "This unique green gem was sent to us from the heavens 15 million years ago, but was meant for a future time, which is now. This gemstone is the ritual stone for integration of body, mind and spirit and can be a great catalyst for change, even if a being is simply in possession of it."-> Quite an extraordinary claim that moldavites were sent to us and meant for now. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence..
I said that if these infos were mentionned on the site, why trust anything that the website says. Behold, "Moldavite is the only known extraterrestrial gemstone on Earth." First off, the origin of tektites is most probably terrestrial http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tektite#Terrestrial_impact_theory . Secondly, pallasites (a type of meteorite) have occasionally been used in jewellery.
So I am definitely not accusing you of anything remotely close to fraud. I was just stating that one should not believe the information provided on the website, because it is ill-informed.
9th Dec 2009 19:08 UTCJakub Jirásek Expert
1) the colour of moldavites vary from rare brown, brownish green, deep (poison) green to light (apple) green and partly changes according to the position in the strewn field. The best colour suitable for gem use is in the South Bohemia Region, sililar are uncommon moldavites from the Cheb Basin in the Western Bohemia.
2) I never heard about enhancing moldavite coulour (glass with very high SiO2 content, not porous, I do not see a process how to do it anyway)
3) I have seen moldavites with sililar colour (it might be partly distorted by photo technique and lighting)
Jakub
9th Dec 2009 19:49 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert
9th Dec 2009 19:54 UTCJan Čermák
Jan
9th Dec 2009 20:43 UTCVandall Thomas King Manager
Perhaps it is over-generous to call crystal healing and metaphysical use of crystals "pseudoscience". Crystal healing, metaphysical crystals, etc. are not pseudoscience. They are magic and the so-called occult sciences. In the Dark Ages "science" was the use of occult powers.
9th Dec 2009 20:56 UTCAnonymous User
9th Dec 2009 21:25 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
http://www.mindat.org/user-4870.html#2_0_10860_0_1_0_
Vita
9th Dec 2009 21:31 UTCMichaelV.
Michael
9th Dec 2009 21:46 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hey Vítězslav Snášel do you feel any
> spiritual power coming from your moldavite's??
>
> Michael
I am a mineral collector and amateur photographer - nothing more!
Moldavites I had only borrowed for the purpose of photography.
I felt happy that they were pretty good details on the surface moldavite - nothing else.
9th Dec 2009 22:07 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert
9th Dec 2009 22:07 UTCA. M.
9th Dec 2009 22:54 UTCMichaelV.
Michael
10th Dec 2009 00:05 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
10th Dec 2009 00:14 UTCJake Sawyer
Let me just say this: No problem for those who wish to believe in the metaphysical properties of stones or not. The point is this. I've been dealing with Moldavite for over a decade and photograph all the pieces myself. The photo was taken from a promotional banner for my website. Please see a couple of photos from the latest photoshoot, a pendant and stone both exhibiting intense green color, NO enhancements.
Indeed, Moldavite is extremely stable at high temperatures and cannot be "heat treated" in anyway. The only fake Moldavite I've encountered over the years is the so called "African Moldavite" which is clearly man-made glass. Some times Australasian tektites are marketed as "Australian Moldavite" downunder but that's about it.
The beauty of Moldavites is in their shear variety. Many of my friends in Czech Republic can identify just about any locality just by seeing a few pieces. Depending on if the stones were alluvial deposits, the specific alkalinity of the soil, etc. Textures, shapes, colors and the natural sheen of the stones vary drastically throughout the various localities. Certainly some of the most prized are the nicknamed "poison green".
Best wishes,
Jacob
p.s. We don't charge an extra markup for any claimed spiritual properties. In fact you'll find that Arkadian Collection has the most affordable prices for Moldavite jewelry on the web.
10th Dec 2009 00:41 UTCRock Currier Expert
Jacob, I have heard that the tektites called "indochinites" are actually the result of big impacts in off shore sediments and that the heat of impact is thought to have heated the sediments to glass temperatures, lofted it high the atmosphere where it came back down through the atmosphere again. Has there been any speculation that the Bohemian moldavites have a similar genesis rather than being directly form some sort of meteor?
10th Dec 2009 00:48 UTCTim Jokela Jr
-------------------------------------------
"We have suggested the use of moldavite in accessing power, in developing clarity, and in connecting to other planets’ frequencies which will enable humankind to evolve at a faster rate. Yes, while that is true, we would also state here that Moldavite is a sacred source of healing energies on this planet, at this time. It acts as a catalyst rather than a calming agent. It is also good for the user of computers or electronic equipment. We would highly recommend beings working for the Light employ it in their practices. It acts as a catalytic operator between realms and between planetary systems. Much has been written lately on the power and properties of Moldavite, but better not to theorize about it, but to use it to access these Higher states or realms of consciousness."
--------------------------------------
People that dupe the gullible with claims of crystal powers are charlatans and should be prosecuted for fraud, false advertising, and whatever else the government can throw at them. This is nothing more than preying upon the weak minded, and should be stamped out.
Mr. Sawyer, you should be locked up.
T
10th Dec 2009 00:52 UTCA. M.
The great variety in the mineral world, all the fascinating shapes and colors, is what makes me collect them. If someone thinks they can cure cold or get rid of a headache - so be it, who am I to tell them what to spend their money on? It just amazes me that such beliefs persist today, but if this stuff sells so well as "being full of mystical powers" - kudos to the sellers for great advertising!
I'm going to look at my drugs now... B)
10th Dec 2009 00:52 UTCMaggie Wilson Expert
AN ADVERTISEMENT????
10th Dec 2009 01:35 UTCAdam Kelly
You seem very proud of your product, and price.
Then why do you need unproven, and frankly ludicrous claims about powers.
It lessens your credibility.
Adam Kelly
10th Dec 2009 01:51 UTCJames Christopher
Sounds too good to be true, it probably is.
10th Dec 2009 02:27 UTCAnonymous User
The original question was 'is the specimen genuine?' Not 'how many years should the seller serve in jail because he promotes belief in magic to make a buck?'
I think it is fair for Jacob to respond to legitimate questions regarding the identity, treatment, pricing, and photography of his specimens. I'm not suggesting his answers are true or his specimens genuine; I'm just saying that it is fair for him to answer. If his response sounds like an advertisement, well, you asked for it.
I find it hard to share the apparent deep indignation and hatred for the subject that many mindaters show. Directing these passionate negative feelings at people - sellers and/or believers - is not going to convert anyone, and may turn people away from this resource and the scienific information it contains. At a show or online, it is easy for me to dispassionately brush aside magical claims and just consider whether the specimen is genuine and priced fairly.
As someone who uses mindat on a regular basis to further my knowledge of minerals, I find this vitriol unpleasant and counter-productive. Can't we just talk about (the science) of rocks?
Thanks.
k
10th Dec 2009 03:05 UTCJames Christopher
10th Dec 2009 05:36 UTCByron Thomas
Byron
10th Dec 2009 07:15 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
-------------------------------------------------------
> Vítězslav!! Beautiful!!
Thank you very much Maggie:)
Now back to the topic about color moldavites.
Moldavite can have a really sharp "poisonous" green color.
For photos depends on whether it is moldavite photographed in backlighting, side light, etc.
The intensity of light - sharp direct light, shading, light, etc.
Moldavites natural color can range from very light green to very dark brown and occur even in very toxic "poison" green.
Moldavite assessed by photo is very difficult and the actual color can be determined only when we have a stone in his hand
and we can see it! In normal daylight color looks very different than when you look at moldavite with back light.
Vita
10th Dec 2009 07:30 UTCDonovan Wood
Jake I understand you feeling insulted. I my self often feel insulted and I am sure there are many more out there who feel the same. What insults me is that people such as your self are quite happy to make a living off of selling things with unsubstantiated names and professing that they have magical abilities when there is no scientific proof. Sure all sciences were at one time frowned upon as fanciful nonsense, however the big difference between established sciences and your so called crystal healing is a little thing called PROOF.
I all so understand mans need to believe in something.
Why don’t you try believing in your self?
10th Dec 2009 07:34 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
-------------------------------------------------------
> Bohemia Region is known for its glass, so it would
> not surprise me if this is a manufactured product.
> Taking advantage of the knowledge of a known strew
> field of tektites. You also have to realize this
> area was under intense pressure during the soviet
> occupation. So the people there are now going to
> do anything they can do to make a euro or a krona
> or a dollar.
> Byron
I must protest against what you write - So this is complete nonsense!
10th Dec 2009 07:38 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
-------------------------------------------------------
> Correct me if I am wrong, but was not moldavite
> the result of silica being projected into the air
> by the impact of the meteorite. not actually
> pieces of the meteorite?
Yes - it is right -it is probably silicate melt from the meteorite impact in Germany(impact Ries).
10th Dec 2009 07:52 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%B6rdlinger_Ries - about impact Ries
And that's all what I can do for this discussion.
Vita
10th Dec 2009 11:56 UTCSpencer Ivan Mather
Spencer.
10th Dec 2009 12:39 UTCDavid Bernstein Expert
Maybe this is just the thing needed to clear up poison ivy or perhaps it could be utilized in various diplomatic efforts to bring long standing conflicts to resolution. Just trying to think globally here.
10th Dec 2009 14:03 UTCKristi Hugs
Kristi
10th Dec 2009 14:05 UTCKristi Hugs
10th Dec 2009 14:09 UTCKristi Hugs
I am a "new age" person. I am very grateful that for years now, many folks here know that, but still take the time to honestly and graciously answer my questions. You see, there are those of us out there that want to know everything there is about a crystal, be it geological and metaphysical. I believe it is important to share the geological information as well as what we feel to be metaphysical information.
I just want to thank all of those out there, esp. Justin from the Vug, David Von B, Steve G., Jolyon and others who have answered my inquiries over the years :) I hope, that all of you do not feel as Spencer does, that my quest for information is any less valuable because I am also metaphysical.
Thanks!
10th Dec 2009 14:10 UTCMark Wells
As a business man, I find it cheap and offensive to attack another person's business and beliefs. I am a home builder and I do not criticize my competitors. This only tells me the person is closed minded and a little person in life. I learned many years ago not to criticize, condemn, or complain about people, their beliefs, or their businesses. What is accomplished by doing this? I always try to see the issue from the other person's perspective. How would you feel if someone was casting doubts and aspersions on your business? I am sure you would be outraged as Mr. Sawyer is.
I have an interest in gems and stones since I took geology courses in college. I traveled to Czech 4 years ago and discovered Moldavite. I was able to procure a large piece, which I keep on my dresser. Does it have metaphysical qualities? I do not know and perhaps most of you don't know either. It is sacred in its natural beauty! It is as beautiful in the natural sunlight as it is on the Arcadian Collection website. Moldavite is rare. In future, we may not have the opportunity to possess something so beautiful. We should praise Jacob Sawyer for providing a means for others to share this experience.
Look for the beauty in the world. Reject ugliness and anger. James Madison wrote the Federalist Paper #10 in which he stated, "There will always be factions". We see things differently, and may not agree, but we can be respectful to one another. We are all entitled to our beliefs. Don't be unkind and ugly. You gain nothing by this.
peace out
Mark
10th Dec 2009 14:41 UTCJeff Weissman Expert
10th Dec 2009 14:55 UTCPaul Foster
However, without any evidence (and by this I mean solid, empirical evidence, not subjective opinion) I shall treat such claims with contempt and dismiss any such claims out of hand. And I may mock... ever so slightly
10th Dec 2009 15:28 UTCSpencer Ivan Mather
Spencer.
10th Dec 2009 16:08 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
The discussion came completely off the original topic about color moldavites.
Me interested only surface and colour moldavite !
http://www.mindat.org/photo-206106.html
http://www.mindat.org/photo-200920.html
Surely it is absolutely unnecessary for anyone to challenge his conviction and faith!
Everyone let them believe what it wants - it's his right!
Can irritate me but such an absurd theory as stated here by Byron Thomas!!
He knows absolutely nothing about moldavites and after one visit to my country developing conspiracy theories about industrial production?!
I wonder if Byron Thomas moldavites such an expert - how many of them seen in your life and how much moldavite they had in their hands that dared to make the theory of industrial production, and littering moldavite on the fields for the money?!
10th Dec 2009 16:08 UTCKristi Hugs
Just last week, I asked Justin from The Vug about a piece a customer had brought to my attention- Smelt Quartz. Yes, it had metaphysical properties, but it did not feel right to me (call it intuition). Justin was able to confirm my suspicions from a geological standpoint and that information was passed on to my customer so that they could make an informed decision.
I thank the community of Mindat every day for giving me geological information (and their opinions) and it seems, that since I have been a member here for many years, that they do not mind doing so. I am very grateful for that.
However, facts or no facts, personal attacks just do not seem the way to get more metaphysical folks to see things from a geological standpoint. Of course, this is just my opinion. I do not judge you for yours, so please try to remain open to mine.
And if you feel you cannot, that is ok too :) See, we in the metaphysical community embrace ALL beliefs, even if we may not agree. And that, is a fact :)
Kristi
10th Dec 2009 16:15 UTCCraig Mercer
I'll see if I can take a few photo's within the naxt few days, show you some real Moldavites. I'm having a hard time transfering photo's from my camera at the moment as I just installed W7 and it's now saying the program for my camera is incompatable :S
10th Dec 2009 16:20 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
There is a difference between belief and preaching/promoting a belief. While I am happy for anyone to believe whatever they want, when it comes to trying to spread their beliefs to others (be it in a church sermon or in a website promoting crystal healing) then they better accept that other people may want to disagree with their views and, thankfully, most of us live in free societies where this sort of debate is protected by law.
So, it's perfectly acceptable for us to criticize crystal healing on this website as it's being discussed and promoted by others on other websites. No-one can claim to be above criticism, regardless of what they believe.
But it should never descend into personal attacks. We can disagree politely!
Jolyon
10th Dec 2009 16:23 UTCKristi Hugs
that would be awesome, thank you!!
10th Dec 2009 16:31 UTCAnonymous User
I could not agree more. The poster (who happens to believe in magic) requested scientific information about a specimen offered for sale (by someone who also claims to believe in magic, and who promotes and presumably profits from such beliefs on a separate website). It should be easy to give opinions on the legitimate scientific question (as some posters did). But non-science was introduced as some began to vent their hatred for it. If someone posts a question directly relating to the supposed powers of crystals, then they should be politely told this is not the place for that. If we devolve into discussing the ridiculousness of magic (and insulting, mocking, etc. those who believe in it) every time there is a whiff of it (even when, like in this case, it is not even the question), it becomes unpleasant and monotonous. I'm discussing it here because I'd like it to STOP.
If, on the other hand, mindat is deemed to have no place for anyone who believes in such magic, sells to those who do, buys from those who do, or benefits from a mineral market that sells to those who do, etc., then this website would have to have a litmus test to enter, and would be a very different place. And if the mineral market overall adhered to this ideal, then I suspect it would be much different (smaller - with pricier available material).
Isn't it enough to want to know scientific information about minerals?
10th Dec 2009 17:05 UTCCraig Mercer
10th Dec 2009 17:26 UTCFranz Bernhard Expert
From "Geochemistry" by William M. White, online at
http://www.geo.cornell.edu/geology/classes/Chapters/Chapter01.pdf
chapter 1.3.2: The Scientist as Skeptic
"Though we often refer to “scientific facts”, there are no facts in science. A fact, by definition, cannot
be wrong. Both observations and theories can be, and sometimes are, wrong."
........
........
"Thus skepticism is one of the keys to good science. In science, never totally believe anything, but never totally disbelieve anything either."
Franz Bernhard
10th Dec 2009 18:43 UTCJakub Jirásek Expert
10th Dec 2009 18:56 UTCMatteo Chinellato Expert
10th Dec 2009 19:09 UTCKristi Hugs
your moldavite is very beautiful!! Amazing specimens :) Thank you so much for sharing.
10th Dec 2009 19:22 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
IMG_0553.JPG = backlight
IMG_0563.JPG = light from the front
v1.jpg = the same moldavite with little light and with long exposition.
10th Dec 2009 21:21 UTCSteve Hardinger 🌟 Expert
I say: Look for truth in the world; reject closed-minded superstitions.
And reject Photoshopped pictures.
10th Dec 2009 22:04 UTCRock Currier Expert
10th Dec 2009 22:24 UTCChester S. Lemanski, Jr.
You are very welcome to post such information about Moldavites on Mindat. We have files for such substances since they are a natural occurrence and of interest to many people. Thank you!
Chet Lemanski
11th Dec 2009 04:14 UTCSteve Stuart Expert
Steve Stuart
11th Dec 2009 16:21 UTCPeter Nancarrow 🌟 Expert
However, without wishing to get deeply entangled in those endless discussions on sensitive issues such as "attacking beliefs", or the semantics and philosophy of the meaning of words such as "fact", "reality", "logic" or even "science", or going too far off topic (this is the "Fakes & Frauds" forum after all!), I will comment on some of the side issues that this topic has thrown up (sic), relating to muddled thinking, science vs. pseudoscience, superstition, beliefs, tolerance, relevance to Mindat, etc.
Franz quoted the statement:
"Though we often refer to “scientific facts”, there are no facts in science. A fact, by definition, cannot be wrong. Both observations and theories can be, and sometimes are, wrong"
I certainly agree with the latter part of the this statement that observations and theories can be mistaken, and with the author's subsequent comment about the necessity of skepticism (sic) in science. However, I would take that one step further, and suggest that constant scepticism should be applied in any world-view which attempts to be rational, whether it claims to be scientific or not. Applying that same rigorous scepticism to the quoted statement, I observe that the author does not claim that observations and theories are invariably or even commonly incorrect.
I must say therefore, that although, at first glance, this appears to be simply a rational note of caution against the blind acceptance of unproven so-called "scientific facts", untangle the cross-links, and, without getting too philosophical, the statement itself can be shown to be illogical, and could even be considered to be an example of "pseudoscience" in the literal sense.
The critical validating key word in the last sentence is "sometimes", and it is a classic non-sequitur, a logical howler, to use that comment in support of an assertion that there are no facts in science.
===========
Examples of observable facts:
Diamond is harder than graphite.
The chemical combination of oxygen and methane is exothermic.
Although the observed temperature of the phase transition varies with pressure, salt content etc, when water does freeze to its crystalline phase, it invariably forms ice (of whichever modification). Not diamond, quartz, iron, silver, marble or marzipan; ICE, never anything else.
I can safely drink 500ml of pure water.
Lions eat meat.
===========
A logical challenge - I will predict a fact.
I will make a hypothertical prediction concerning an experiment which has never been carried out, so apparently the experiment and its results cannot be facts, per se? That experiment could have only one possible, irreversible, result; one which fits indisputably with all known scientific facts, observations and and theories, and indeed the whole experience of humanity. (I challenge anyone to prove otherwise).The most significant expected result of this experiment is a change of physical state which has given rise to some of the most profound (and some of the most speculative) thinking in human history, and which has involved researchers ranging from scientists to theologians.
The prediction? (In the future, yet an indisputable fact!) It is possible for me to attain a permanent state of being which no living human has ever experienced! With me so far?
The experiment? My head will be cut off and fed to a lion.
The result? That predicted fact, that "permanent state of being"? - I would be dead; and it would be impossible for anyone to reverse the process or disprove the fact. (Disregarding evasive semantics of the words "fact", "lion", "dead" and "irreversible", and without invoking unproven hyptheses of time travel, which might allow the lion to regurgitate my head in an undamaged and functional form, and some form of miraculous/alien surgery to re-attach it to my (still viable) body.)
==============
The point of all this?
Science deals with provable reality, whether in the past, present or future. The scientific method depends on accurate, repeatable observations, the objective precise recording of facts, testable predictions, logic, and communication, together with more abstract qualities such as objectivity, rationality and integrity. Yes, observations commonly are misinterpreted or inaccurately reported. The researcher must navigate a minefield of optical illusions, misinterpretation of data, instrument malfunctions, failures of logic, etc, and sometimes even fraud and deception, but when all is said and done, the objective of the scientific method is to attain that highest plane of consciousness, a rational world view, based on facts, logic and reality.
One thing that really bugs me is the sustained assault on rationality and downright common sense by muddled thinkers, con merchants, and the unscrupulous and misinformed, which blurs the boudaries between reality and fantasy, between science and mysticism, between accurate reporting and marketing hype, for their mundane profit, political advancement, evangelical religious motives, etc.
Don't get me wrong; I have absolutely nothing against a bit of fantasy, etc so long as it is clearly acknowleged as such. I enjoyed "American Werewolf In London", "The Matrix", " The Time Machine" etc, as much as anyone, but if people choose alternative world views, whether based on, and/or influenced by, faith, hearsay, deception, fantasy or psychoactive chemicals, or simply because of a misguided wish to escape from the far more impressive reality of this amazing universe, yet claim their beliefs are "The Truth", then so be it. I am unlikely to be able to convince them otherwise, but just don't expect me to "respect their beliefs" - they clearly don't respect mine.
Pete N.
PS Above post copied to my blogs for the record.
11th Dec 2009 17:56 UTCRock Currier Expert
11th Dec 2009 18:36 UTCAnonymous User
Absolutely excellent post, well done!!
PMB
11th Dec 2009 19:47 UTCFranz Bernhard Expert
It would have been nice, if I had also cited this sentence from William M. White:
1.3.1 Building Scientific Understanding
"Science deals in only two quantities: observations and theories. The most basic of these is the observation."
The word "Fact" ist not part of White´s scientific terminology.
Franz Bernhard
11th Dec 2009 20:46 UTCAnonymous User
So the term "fact" is better used for making the public understand that these are solid bodies of information that have been proven, even though all the mechanisms of the occurrence of the phenomena may not yet be explained.
12th Dec 2009 05:15 UTCFranz Bernhard Expert
Again from William M. White:
"Of course, some observations (e.g., the Sun rises each morning in the East) and theories (the Earth revolves around the Sun)
are so often repeated and so well established that they are not seriously questioned. But remember that the theory that the Sun revolves around the Earth was itself once so well established that it was not seriously questioned."
Franz Bernhard
12th Dec 2009 15:17 UTCAnonymous User
And princeton; "a piece of information about circumstances that exist or events that have occurred" and "an event known to have happened or something known to have existed".
A hypothesis is not a fact, but a true and valid scientific theory can be.
Evolution, for example, is not the best theory 'right now'. It works, and it has been proven to occur.
1. Recent speciation between Black-Backed (Bullock) and Baltimore Orioles, http://www.bioone.org/doi/abs/10.1650/7496?cookieSet=1&journalCode=cond
2. Natural selection in action: Peppered moths. It takes a while to explain, so I will just point to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peppered_moth_evolution
3. Diane Dodd experiment with Drosophila illustrates nicely how minor changes such as food source can cause speciation, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation#Artificial_speciation
4. Derived traits; you look at the structures present in a series of organisms, and you can tell which are the most closely related. Ever wonder why bird and human embryos are ultra similar? They are all species derived from an amniote ancestor. By looking at the bulk of these traits you can establish the probable phylogeny of thousands of organisms. If you look at the genetics of the modern day organisms, their variances reflect this phylogeny. The fossils do to!
5. Whale evolution is a beautiful and fascinating example. Simple video on the matter, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I2C-3PjNGok
There are thousands upon thousands more examples, surely some better ones out there that I do not yet know about. Some very precise facets of the evolutionary theory are disputed, however these only build on the theory. Evolution has been established as a fact (see definition above). These disputed areas do not in any way challenge the validity of evolution, only the specifics.
Now it is clear what the definition of fact is. Evolution, without a doubt, occurs/exists/happens and is therefore a fact.
Franz, about your quote, if a 'theory' such as is the Sun revolving around the Earth is not seriously questioned it means that there is not significant evidence supporting it. That makes it a hypothesis! The correct definition of theory in science is "a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world; an organized system of accepted knowledge that applies in a variety of circumstances to explain a specific set of phenomena. "theories can incorporate facts and laws and tested hypotheses"; "true in fact and theory" " (This definition from Princeton wordnet).
PMB
PS: "the label of a "fact" does not do any good to science and the public." Actually, it does! The theory vs. fact issue is a major help to anti-evolution proponents who do not understand the concept of evolution and want to get terribly invalid and illogical 'theories' (not actual theories) of their own taught to in schools, and want to skew the fact that evolution is proven by saying it is "just a theory and therefore not a fact"!!!
12th Dec 2009 19:34 UTCFranz Bernhard Expert
thank you very much also to you! Maybe I am just generally very sceptic - should it be science, metaphysics, esoterics, religions, mineral identification, whatever :)
Thanks again!
Franz Bernhard
17th Dec 2009 02:15 UTCJamey Swisher
Moldavite could and easily be treated in any number of different ways, sorry. In fact, it could be done so fairly easily actually as silica glasses are very easy to color, just look at all the borosilicates used in the jewelry and lapidary trades for faceting materials. Dyeing being the most common. The market is full of fake moldavite, I do mean full too!! It is being faked in places like China and Thailand in large amounts, even going so far as to take broken bottle glass and carve the "splatter" designs into the flat leaf like shaped pieces. This is old news, been on the market, fake stuff, for years now. There is more fake out there then legit real moldavite, after all, glass is not difficult to fake. That said, true moldavite almost always has a roiling affect in it like a hessonite garnet does, where much of the fake stuff seldom does, but this is in no way a valid form/method to identify the real thing, but can easily rule out the fake stuff. Also, from what I understand, the ONLY true moldavite is an olive drab type green mixing with browns to give varying shads of this olive drab type color, these bright greens and such are NOT true "natural" moldavite and have always been taught to me as being the fakes. I have a supplier who can constantly supply me with facet grade material and not a single bit is any other shade other then a variation of the olive drab, he has never even seen any other colors himself either.
In reality, Helenite, Mount Saint Helen's Stone(emerald, ruby, etc.) is almost the same thing Only difference is man is the one doing the melting of the erupted materials and dust to create the glass to make the gemstones out of instead of nature.
As for spiritual and healing, no clues about that side of things and frankly don't really care. Each to their own. But the FTC Guidelines do have a specific section for Deception and Fraud, and by selling a gemstone as something it is not or with properties it does not have or you can not prove it has could easily land you into civil as well as criminal legal issues.
17th Dec 2009 04:27 UTCByron Thomas
I never said I was a Moldavite expert I am far far from that and as you say Vítězslav your English isn't the best so let me clear some of your misconceptions up. Yes I have been to the Cheb area of the Czech republic I have relatives there why would I not go there. Besides being very beautiful it also has some very cool geology including the impact feature. That area IS know for its glass manufacturing. It is also known for its Moldavites which come in a very wide range of colors including the weird radio active green and I have seen them. Nowhere do I say that the Moldavite in question is a fake I cant say either way if it is a fake or if it isn't. Now I do say rather poorly on my part and I do imply that it could be faked, I have no proof of this and i shouldn't have stated as much and for that i apologize for putting it like that. But I do say I have seen Moldavite of this color and i have held it and it was from the original collector. So I could say that the Moldavite i held and viewed i would be 99% sure it was the real stuff.
Vítězslav, some people will always try to cheat others if they can find a way to do it and to get away with it. But not all the people are like this, as a rule are the people of the Cheb region like this, No they are not. But you have to understand in out hobby there is an ever growing abundance of fakes. Both of minerals, and fossils, to act like this isn't an issue out there is just burying your head in the sand.
I happened to be visiting a very large glass manufacture here int he USA and they let us walk on the production floor behind the ropes and we got to see the process from the start to the finish for the good stuff to the junk they destroy. In our tour i got to see the waist glass that was drained off the melting pots of kettles being drained and how some of it would form nice tear drop forms and depending if the fans hit is would take the pocked marked look to the surface. I was amazed that even at that point how much it looked like a Moldavite in the shape and the color and even the texture.
This is why I brought up the glass manufacturing in the Bohemia Region. Do I know for a fact this is what happened here? No I do not. Would it surprise me if it happened, you may want me to say yes it would surprise me because it couldn't possible happen there but you know what I have dealt with people In the military as well as people from all over the world in my hobby and as friends. I have family in that region i have friends there does this make me change my mind and say that this couldn't happen. Once again NO it does not. But do i know that the Moldavite in question is a man made. I have no way to say either way. I am sorry you feel this is no more that saying yes it is man made but I never said that. When it comes right down to it I defended it for its color and because i saw and held Moldavites that were collected and shown to me buy the original collector. I even said that Moldavites are found in that area, i defended that area in that aspect also. SOoooo why you seam to be coming down on me i know not why.
Vítězslav, you can make of me what you want. But I will still go back to visit the Cheb area and I will still love that area of Europe No matter how or you feel about me.
Byron
My favorite photos of Cheb
17th Dec 2009 04:39 UTCJeffrey Hill
20th Dec 2009 21:59 UTCCraig Mercer
31st Dec 2009 16:24 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
You did write this and I do not agree - that's all !
_______________________________
"I was in Cheb in 2002, and I went to many rock shops in and around the Cheb area. Yes this could be Moldavite, and yes it comes in this green color as well brown and lite green and dark green and even the sickly radio active green. There is a lots of it found that area, so the claim of it being scares well that's a bit of a stretch. But you also have to realize that in the same area there are many glass manufacturing companies. The Bohemia Region is known for its glass, so it would not surprise me if this is a manufactured product. Taking advantage of the knowledge of a known strew field of tektites. You also have to realize this area was under intense pressure during the soviet occupation. So the people there are now going to do anything they can do to make a euro or a krona or a dollar. If this is real great and wow what a color it is, but also realize it not above people in one country to take advantage of people in another country. Because what is the chance your going to pop up in Cheb and check the validity of their story of where and when and how they came across this. It wouldn't be beyond any stretch for them to say anything to get a store to buy it. After all these are the same people or same group of people that tried to sell my mom amber that was plastic, they swore it was amber till i heated the blade of my pocket knife touched it to the amber and low and behold it smelled like burning plastic.
Byron
_________________________________
Byron,
Now completely without emotion :)
When you have the necessary knowledge of Moldavite, their absolutely unique sculpture, their unique color then you can talk together on theme Moldavite.
Does not make sense to publish theories about what is possible and what is not possible without basic knowledge of Moldavite.
The original question was worded as if it may be poisonous green with Moldavite - those who know this issue we said YES - that poisonous green with moldavites is nothing unusual.
Who knows more about moldavite knows how can have structure, how can have a color and how may have different aerodynamics shapes due etc.
Confuse moldavite with glass from the glassworks?
Only one who did not Moldavite in hand or never has seen!
Vita
31st Dec 2009 18:15 UTCDonald Slater
PS. Back to where this all began, I do think they are not fakes. I have seen a lot of moldavite in many shades of green to almost black because they are so dark.
31st Dec 2009 18:26 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
Vita
sculpture moldavites http://www.mindat.org/user-4870.html#2_0_10860_0_1_0_
1st Jan 2010 12:45 UTCJeffrey Shallit
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away while scientists debate rival theories for explaining them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air pending the outcome. And human beings evolved from apelike ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other, yet to be discovered.
"Moreover, `fact' does not mean `absolute certainty'. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science, "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional assent". I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms."
That's Gould, from his book Hen's Teeth and Horse's Toes.
1st Jan 2010 20:25 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
I have yet to see Darwin's ideas written down as a logical deductive structure replete with semantic correlates, though I have no doubt that it can be done. I think it is funny to see people who accept evolution having a semantic argument about it. The Creationists just love this sort of thing. "Why should you believe in evolution, when even the proponents can't agree!!!" For someone with an agenda it doesn't matter what the disagreement is about.
An honest understanding of Theories and Facts is very distant from the common view that theories are vague, unproven ideas and facts are incontrovertable observed truths.
7th Jan 2010 22:57 UTCDonald Slater
8th Jan 2010 05:55 UTCVítězslav Snášel Expert
At high magnification, and backlit moldavites details are really beautiful and I can assure you that they are natural.
Sculpture moldavites formed millions of years. The Moldavite soil were exposed to various acids and other erosion features and the results from a totally unique structure.
I do macro-photography moldavite with focus in layers and then the final picture consists of (for example) 10 images.
Details are photographed in total darkness using strong back-lights. On clear glass I put black paper and cut a little hole in it - put Moldavite on "paper hole" - under the glass down below 25 watts halogen lamp - the lamp I have around the aperture so that the light went up only by a small hole in the paper - and focuses the individual layers and then to fold using CombineZM. Individual exposures are long around 1 sec. and more.
I will send to my Mindat Home Page more details moldavites;)
Agree with you,
Nature is absolutely fantastic artist.
....... for example ;) http://www.mindat.org/photo-229147.html
Vita
8th Jan 2010 20:07 UTCDonald Slater
21st Jan 2010 17:45 UTCRusty James
Each person has the right to be well informed, or ill informed. The fact that some metaphysically inclined mineral collectors come to this site because they are also interested in the scientific basis behind the minerals means that they will be part of a more well-informed category.
1st Feb 2010 00:42 UTCBob Kukiel
It does whet my appetite for a piece of that most excellent rock, though. I never heard of moldavite before.
Does anyone sell it sans "ayurvedic fire" or jewelry?
10th Feb 2010 23:00 UTCAnonymous User
I don’t have problems with minerals and energy but do have a problem with metahippies who don’t know what they are talking about. Too many of them out there.
31st Mar 2019 16:50 UTCDanny Bean
1st Apr 2019 17:03 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
The bubbles exclude moldavite.
1st Apr 2019 18:08 UTCGregg Little 🌟
And yes as Uwe states, visually identifiable bubbles would exclude a tektite.
1st Apr 2019 20:24 UTCDave Owen
1st Apr 2019 21:12 UTCBrandon Aldinger
Could you post a picture?
In my region (Pennsylvania, USA), a big chunk of green glass-like material with bubbles would almost certainly be slag. Slag is a waste product from iron furnaces, which operated in the area for the better part of the last two centuries. Another possibility is that your rock is a piece of waste glass from a glass plant, depending on where you are located.
Without a photo, this is just speculation on my part.
2nd Apr 2019 08:54 UTCLukáš Křesina
http://www.muzeumtr.cz/produkt-vltavin-slavice-998.html
http://www.muzeumtr.cz/produkt-vltavin-slavice-1014.html
And small bubbles are absolutely common in tektites.
Lukáš Křesina
2nd Apr 2019 11:28 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
2nd Apr 2019 18:42 UTCGregg Little 🌟
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: May 10, 2024 00:54:32