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Improving Mindat.orgSabugalite from France
12th Jan 2016 16:15 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
13th Jan 2016 01:07 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
13th Jan 2016 01:13 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
13th Jan 2016 02:17 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
13th Jan 2016 13:39 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
13th Jan 2016 21:03 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
We appreciate your role in finding these issues, just wish they were easier to fix, we certainly need to get more analytical data in here, linking to locations as well as the main mineral pages.
14th Jan 2016 15:42 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
"even the Type Location is listed as " believed valid"! There must be some analyses," not sure why it says believed valid as opposed to valid? The reference gives an analysis: http://www.minsocam.org/ammin/AM36/AM36_671.pdf
Interesting thing is that subsequent to this study everyone simply ignores what it says, for example "Air dried sabugalite fluoresces a bright lemon yellow in both long-wave and short-wave ultraviolet radiation although somewhat more intensely in the long wave-lengths. Slightly dehydrated material obtained by heating fresh sabugalite to temperatures of 44o or 68o also fluoresces lemon yellow but somewhat less intensely, and the meta-Il hydrate obtained by heating to 135o is very weakly fluorescentl in both cases the fluorescence is slightly stronger in long-wave than in short-wave radiation."
Well every example in mindat fluoresces green?? yet there is no study refuting the first or proving that it fluoresces green?
Jean-Marc cites: Chervet, J (1960) Les minéraux secondaires. in Les Minéraux uranifères français (1), Bibliothèque des sciences techniques et nucléaire, Saclay, 322p. one could read about the sabugalite fluorescence that it is the same than the autunite one.
One photo with crystals orientated perpendicularly one to the other is shown fig 139 on page 192.
But Chervet provides no primary data to confirm this. And remember optical methods are not reliable because of dehydration and in 1960 microprobes were not in common use ( the first commercial one was not available until 1956).
14th Jan 2016 17:43 UTCTimothy Greenland
I should add that I do have a defect of colour vision and my appreciation of shades of colour is not always reliable!
I agree that secondary references are a problem in scientific publication in many (?all?) fields, and are often unreliable...
Cheers
Tim
14th Jan 2016 17:54 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
gives for sabugalite:
Lemon yellow, yellowish green (both stronger in LW than in SW)
In our collection we have one sabugalite specimen from the Margnac II Mine; it was obtained from the Ecole des Mines, Paris.
According to the description the sabugalite forms yellow-green plates, associated with autunite, on a reddish rock.
15th Jan 2016 10:18 UTCTimothy Greenland
Tim
15th Jan 2016 13:06 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
15th Jan 2016 13:19 UTCTimothy Greenland
Tim
15th Jan 2016 13:46 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
15th Jan 2016 17:14 UTCJean-Louis O.
Under LW UV light the part with autunite crystals is bright green (left on the photo, bright yellow) and the sabugalite (or assumed sabugalite) part is yellow (pale yellow/orange in the photo).
Sabugalite et autunite, Margnac Mine, Compreignac, Haute-Vienne, Limousin, France
15th Jan 2016 17:20 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
15th Jan 2016 17:27 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
Reiner, could you please send messages to all those green fluorescing 'sabugalites'?
15th Jan 2016 20:05 UTCJean-Louis O.
15th Jan 2016 20:13 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
15th Jan 2016 20:55 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
"Reiner, could you please send messages to all those green fluorescing 'sabugalites'?" Sorry I can't do that I only have a "Complain" button for Canadian minerals. I would have to PM everyone, is that what you want me to do?
15th Jan 2016 21:24 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
15th Jan 2016 22:31 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
15th Jan 2016 22:38 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
16th Jan 2016 01:05 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
16th Jan 2016 21:12 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
17th Jan 2016 15:16 UTCAxel Emmermann
It is clear that two autunite specimens wil have identical spectral peaks with comparable relative intesities.
Different uranyl minerals have different spectra. Even very similar minerals like andersonite and liebigite have slightly different spectra. Usually the delta-k (dk) can be used as means of identification. This dk is the distance in cm-1 between the equidistant peaks (best just next to the Franck-Condon peak) of the vibronic emission of the UO22- fluorescence emission.. The comparing the spectrum of autunite/andersonite clarifies this.
The specimen in question was certainly not autunite, although it was determinerd as such by means of RAMAN-spectroscopy. The spectrum under UV shows something clearly different from autunite.
The difference between the dk of autunite and that of sabugalite is a mere 25 cm-1! This is to small to be measured with any confidence with a steady state USB fluorescence spectrometer. It is of the order of magnitude of 0.8 nm, whereas the instrument resolving power was 1.8 nm. Since I reached the maximum allowed number of attachments, I will discuss this further in a separate message.
17th Jan 2016 15:41 UTCAxel Emmermann
One of those may very well be autunite.
The sum of the Gaussians that were found in this deconvolution agrees for 99.95% with the spectrum of the "unknown of Margnac", which is very solid.
It goes to show that even in evenly green fluorescing uranyl minerals you can actually not trust your eyes and, as it turns out, not even RAMAN analysis to make a complete identification when it comes to possible intergrowths.
Best regards
Axel Emmermann
MKA - Mineralogical Society of Antwerp
http://www.minerant.org/MKA/
Werkgroep Fluorescerende Mineralen
http://fluo.mineralogie.be/Home_Nederlands.html
#15513
http://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/sbdb.cgi?sstr=15513&orb=1
17th Jan 2016 18:29 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
17th Jan 2016 19:42 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
In addition, the beam might induce dehydration.
17th Jan 2016 19:57 UTCAxel Emmermann
This was measured DURING our mineral show in 2014.
Also: these specimens are rather pricy!
Most collectors don't fancy having their specimen ground up... (However, I wonder how the RAMAN was performed? That is also an orientation-sensitive measurement...)
Uwe: have you any idea about how large the impact of dehydration would be on the parameters you mentionend?
17th Jan 2016 21:12 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
17th Jan 2016 22:07 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
17th Jan 2016 23:14 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
2nd Feb 2016 12:02 UTCPascal Chollet Expert
I'm late answering, as I had no time to check the samples.
Well, there's an issue with the photo. a kind of digital "ageratum effect" ! the fluorescence is lemon yellow, but turns green on the photo.
I notices other color changes on photos with different minerals.
Very recently I took pictures of a significant one :
Bariopharmacosiderite, Les Montmins (France) - L=2,9mm
This is lighted with daylight type LED lamps
With tungsten halogen lighting, the green color is less intense, but remains green while direct observation. But what a surprise when photographying the sample !
The same one lighted with tungsten optic fiber source. The color remained green in the viewfinder, but not on the sensor !
So I can confirm that the real fluorescence is lemon yellow, and not green. I will add a comment in the photo caption.
Pascal
5th Mar 2017 13:51 UTCReiner Mielke Expert
https://www.mindat.org/photo-420289.html , https://www.mindat.org/photo-420288.html In addition sabugalite is not known to twin. However this is typical twinning found in autunite. see:https://www.mindat.org/photo-726295.html
https://www.mindat.org/photo-608103.html
There are numerous other photos that show twinned "sabugalite" with no supporting analysis. These should all be moved into the users galleries until such time as they can be proven to be sabugalite.
5th Mar 2017 19:48 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: April 26, 2024 14:15:43