╳Discussions
💬 Home🔎 Search📅 LatestGroups
EducationOpen discussion area.Fakes & FraudsOpen discussion area.Field CollectingOpen discussion area.FossilsOpen discussion area.Gems and GemologyOpen discussion area.GeneralOpen discussion area.How to ContributeOpen discussion area.Identity HelpOpen discussion area.Improving Mindat.orgOpen discussion area.LocalitiesOpen discussion area.Lost and Stolen SpecimensOpen discussion area.MarketplaceOpen discussion area.MeteoritesOpen discussion area.Mindat ProductsOpen discussion area.Mineral ExchangesOpen discussion area.Mineral PhotographyOpen discussion area.Mineral ShowsOpen discussion area.Mineralogical ClassificationOpen discussion area.Mineralogy CourseOpen discussion area.MineralsOpen discussion area.Minerals and MuseumsOpen discussion area.PhotosOpen discussion area.Techniques for CollectorsOpen discussion area.The Rock H. Currier Digital LibraryOpen discussion area.UV MineralsOpen discussion area.Recent Images in Discussions
PhotosAgate formation Theory, Part 2
5th Aug 2020 13:40 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
This is a close-up photo of a small area within a much larger (7.0 x 6.0 cm) agate slab. It shows a unique area of banding (4.5 mm wide) that provides some challenging features regarding the process of agate formation. It may be the remnant of a preceding generation of chalcedony. It has two well defined fractures that do not extend into the surrounding material. The lower fracture provided a route for the intrusion of a solution that altered some of the banding to a bright red color suggesting that the banding had variations in porosity. One possibility is that the banded area is a small chip of agate that fell into a wider fracture. The fracture then filled with a second generation of chalcedony that engulfed the chip. The two photos are associated using the minID.
Agree or disagree? Please comment.10th Aug 2020 05:08 UTCFrank Casella
12th Aug 2020 11:29 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
7th Aug 2020 12:10 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
This is another agate from the Lake Shore Traps in Keweenaw County that may show features of interest to anyone pondering agate formation theory. It is clear that one of the first events that occurred in this vesicle is the crystallization of a cluster of acicular crystals, probably a zeolite. It is also clear that a solution with a very low viscosity entered the vesicle. It was a liquid capable of capillary action and it saturated the crystal cluster. It clearly transported silica into the vesicle perhaps with trace amounts of other minerals. During the crystallization of the chalcedony two “bull’s eyes” of three orange bands each formed at the edge of the original crystal cluster. Although somewhat distorted, they completed the circle down into the crystal cluster.
I have never seen anything like this before. Is it possible that this visually supports the theory that banding in agate forms simultaneously by “self-organization” during crystallization of the chalcedony?
9th Aug 2020 20:32 UTCSteve Ewens
9th Aug 2020 20:39 UTCSteve Ewens
in my formation theory these orbicular zeolites were the first occupants and were generally on the "floor" of the vesicle and are commonly found as casts or molds. later occupants such as scolecite are more frequently found as inclusions or replacments in the interior of the amygdale.
9th Aug 2020 20:46 UTCSteve Ewens
10th Aug 2020 13:06 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Welcome to Mindt Steve,
Many of the agates that I have collected in the Lake Shore Traps, Keweenaw Co. Michigan show the replacement of zeolite clusters similar to what you show.
The last specimen appears to have scolecite clusters covered with secondary jasper not replaced. I do have calcite crystals covered with secondary agate but your specimen is new to me. Thanks.
20th Aug 2020 13:32 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager
21st Aug 2020 17:01 UTCTeodor Pamukov
21st Aug 2020 19:56 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Teodor,
Thanks for introducing me to Bulgarian Agates. I did some research on the web and found many beautiful colorful examples. The bright greens in some of the agates are exceptional. It would interesting to determine the chemistry that produces that intense color. I have never seen the pseudo stalactites in Michigan agates. Sometimes they are found in agates from Kentucky.
22nd Aug 2020 09:53 UTCTeodor Pamukov
22nd Aug 2020 11:19 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Teodor,
I just remembered this agate from Keweenaw County, Michigan. The name that has been given to this type of agate in the U.S. is “Tube Agate”. It appears that the tubes may have originated as pseudo stalactites as you describe but the chalcedony/agate continued to fill the vesicle.
7th Aug 2020 23:24 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
8th Aug 2020 02:15 UTCDoug Daniels
8th Aug 2020 03:18 UTCKevin Conroy Manager
8th Aug 2020 16:38 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Thanks for the comments guys,
I accept the fact that the theory of agate formation will not be resolved in my lifetime. It is one of the most complicated processes in mineralogy. George Robinson once told me that, “just when you think that you understand it, another specimen comes along that causes you to start over”.
8th Aug 2020 14:01 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
8th Aug 2020 16:18 UTCErik Vercammen Expert
8th Aug 2020 17:25 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Alfredo,
Here is a pattern associated with the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction (Wikipedia). The information stated that the exciter that produced the self- organization was light. Agate would crystalize in darkness so there must be another exciter. It is starting to look like some sort of self-organizing process may apply to agate formation.
Erik,
I could not find your reference on line.
8th Aug 2020 21:32 UTCErik Vercammen Expert
8th Aug 2020 21:22 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Here are links to two prior threads on this subject.
https://www.mindat.org/mesg-410710.html8th Aug 2020 23:23 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
8th Aug 2020 23:30 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
This agate from the Lake Shore Traps shows a unique banding pattern. It is made up of alternating layers of tan chalcedony and macro quartz. The Quartz Page, Amir C. Akhavan, summarizes the conditions under which cryptocrystalline and macrocrystalline quartz form. Cryptocrystalline quartz (chalcedony) crystallizes at temperatures below ca. 150°C with high concentrations of silica in watery solutions. Macrocrystalline quartz crystallizes at temperatures above ca. 150°C with low concentrations of silica in watery solutions and in the presents of electrolytes.
The required variation in temperature suggests that the deposition of the quartz bands within this vesicle would be sequential rather than simultaneous self-organized. It may be that no single theory will explain everything.
8th Aug 2020 23:36 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
9th Aug 2020 15:11 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
This photo was produced courtesy of the Field Museum of Natural History (Chicago) in the 1930’s. It clearly illustrates the porosity of agate by the fact that color changes can be achieved by commercial dyeing methods. The natural gray color of the agate slab is shown at the right. The remainder of the agate was cut into six strips; each one dyed a different color. Each color represents a different process using various chemicals. I think that some of my agate specimens show the effects of secondary natural dyeing processes. It appears that if an agate forms from a two color banded, self-organizing process or by sequential layers, it still may have undergone color change by alteration. The movement of chemical laden water through basalt and agate seems to be evident in the specimens that we collect.
Mindat gets many questions about dyed agates so I will add some of the chemistry provided by GemologyOnline.com.
“Dying Chalcedony, Agate and Onyx first involves boiling the stone in a strong bicarbonate solution, then soaking the stone in a chemical solution.
Red: iron nitrate solution
Green: chromic acid or nickel nitrate
Brown: sugar solution followed by heat.
Blue: red or yellow prussiate of potassium followed by soaking in iron sulphate solution.
Black: sugar solution followed by suphuric acid.”
9th Aug 2020 15:21 UTCHerwig Pelckmans
9th Aug 2020 17:59 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
I also have that book, Herwig.
It is still a pretty good reference even though it is over 80 years old.
10th Aug 2020 01:06 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager
11th Aug 2020 15:04 UTCLeslie George
11th Aug 2020 15:50 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Thanks for the information, Leslie. I think that my son gets that magazine so I will eventually get a look.
11th Aug 2020 15:23 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
When I started collecting agates in the 1950’s there was no internet. I was a collector of mineralogical and geological specimens but, by necessity, I also had to be a book collector. I read that agates formed sequentially one band at a time from the outside in. The opposite of how tree rings form. That seemed to make a lot of sense and life was good. Now I have a computer and I have saved many new professional papers on this subject. Good grief, it is complicated! I wish that the guys that are getting so much technical information from the ancient aliens would ask the question “How did agates form?”
I still think that some agate forms as sequential layers but personally, I am starting to see the possibility that some agate may form by simultaneous self-organization. There are several processes that produce self-organized patterns in the lab that look like what we see in agate. The problem is that I don’t think that self-organized patterns have ever been reproduced in synthetic chalcedony in the laboratory,
Below are two agates that may be candidates for self-organized banding. It is just a thought that can’t yet be proved.
11th Aug 2020 15:28 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
There are also some interesting copper deposits in pressure cracks.
11th Aug 2020 22:47 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
12th Aug 2020 18:23 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
This Tom Rosemeyer specimen looks very much like the patterns shown in the petri dishes above. I think that the outer band on this specimen is an alteration caused by dissolution and replacement of the chalcedony. Some agates in the Portage Lake Volcanics seem to show this.
This is interesting because, in this case, the outer band may be the youngest rather than the oldest.
12th Aug 2020 22:26 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
20th Aug 2020 11:49 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
Here is another example that seems to indicate that the outer band is a replacement with second generation chalcedony. The outer band protrudes into the original banding. The ends of the bands appear to be “feathered” showing partial dissolution and “healing”.
22nd Aug 2020 17:38 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
“The rocks within the Keweenaw Peninsula native copper district were pervasively altered by low-temperature, low-pressure hydrothermal/burial metamorphic fluids. Alteration was most intensely associated with the native copper deposits, although to some degree, secondary hydrothermal minerals occur in all rocks of the Portage Lake Volcanics.”
Reference: Bornhorst T.J. Barron R. J. (2013) Geologic Overview of the Keweenaw Peninsula, Michigan, Institute on Lake Superior Geology.
There is consensus among many professional papers that extensive alteration occurred in the rocks that make up the Keweenaw Peninsula. They describe that hydrothermal solutions penetrated the rocks along fractures but a photo that illustrates the process in full color is rare.
This photo suggests that a low-temperature, low-pressure hydrothermal solution with dissolved silica and copper flowed into a fracture and crystallized simultaneously resulting in the “healing” of a preexisting chalcedony amygdule. (I am not sure about the word simultaneous, help required.)
23rd Aug 2020 12:17 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
The upper agate (FOV 10.0 mm) shows two “plumes” of alteration where hydrothermal solutions penetrated into the chalcedony. The top one is red/brown and the bottom one is green. There appears to be another alteration at the right end as well as an altered feldspar phenocryst.
The lower photo (FOV 3.2 mm) is a close-up of an altered feldspar phenocryst showing significant etching. It has not been analyzed; however, some professional papers describe them as green plagioclase altered to albite. The dense black mineral in the center is from the chlorite group.
It is clear that the hydrothermal solution found its way into micro spaces in the crystalline basalt saturating it with copper inclusions.
23rd Aug 2020 13:22 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
These agates clearly show the partial dissolution of the outer band of chalcedony and the replacement by copper and almost transparent secondary chalcedony. The hydrothermal solutions that deposited the copper found a way into the banding. The pattern of the banding appears to be random.
Considering the alterations that may occur in agates, it appears that a description of the mode of formation must be written on an individual bases.
Tom Rosemeyer specimens.
14th Oct 2020 19:03 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
There is a statement on the Mindat Quartz Page that I just discovered. It suggests that macro quartz crystals can form at ambient temperatures and pressures.
“Quartz crystals typically grow in fluids at elevated temperatures between 150°C and 600°C, but they also grow at ambient conditions (Mackenzie and Gees, 1971; Ries and Menckhoff, 2008).”
Amir elaborated on this subject in an old thread from 2010. Here is the link:
https://www.mindat.org/mesg-205142.html
This suggests a very delicate ambient threshold between the formation of macro quartz and chalcedony and may explain the sequential alternating of macro quartz and chalcedony bands as shown in the Teepee Canyon Agate above. The macro quartz bands appear to be dimpled. This is caused by a coating of opaque chalcedony covering the water clear macro quartz terminations. You are looking through the quartz prisms at the terminations inside out. Some of the bands show a very subtle transition from chalcedony to very tiny macro quartz crystals.
Enlarge to see.
15th Oct 2020 21:38 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
9th Nov 2020 16:44 UTCLarry Maltby Expert
This “agate” is another example of some challenging mineralogy. It is clear in the geology of the Keweenaw Peninsula, that the basalt flows of the Portage Lake Volcanics were in place before the hydrothermal event that precipitated the copper. It may be that preexisting epidote crystals in a vesicle were inundated in hydrothermal solutions resulting in alterations that produced patches of greenish yellow color from the epidote into the quartz now filling the vesicle. When Tom and I were working on the St. Louis Mine we did find bright yellow epidote crystals that were verified by analysis.
See the child photos for more information. Please comment if you have some thoughts on this.
9th Nov 2020 17:50 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager
Your ideas of the timing of fluid interaction fits with what was found in my study a few years ago. In that sequence it went epidote/pumpellyite/native copper, then quartz comes in near the end of epidote deposition. It is very possible (likely, actually) that epidote and quartz came in together for a brief time and due to "mixing" of fluids that you get the off-coloured epidote; a dilution effect of sorts...
Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: May 10, 2024 13:17:23
Lakeshore traps, Eagle Harbor, Keweenaw County, Michigan, USA