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Improving Mindat.orgXRD analysis of 'kiwi jasper'

13th Apr 2021 00:02 UTCRolf Egberink

Recently I had some tumbled stones with fancy names analyzed because I had doubts about their exact composition and "Kiwi jasper" was one of them.

That "Kiwi jasper" is not jasper at all is well known to many by now. But what is it? It is indicated by most vendors that the stone is made up of amazonite, tourmaline and rock crystal / quartz.

After my own research, I determined that it does indeed contain quartz (not the clear variety of rock crystal) and a white-gray main mass (probably feldspar) with a slight green tinge here and there (this would have to be the amazonite). The darker grains referred to as tourmaline look under the microscope more like a mica mineral such as muscovite or biotite. I could not come to an unequivocal conclusion myself, so a tumbled stone of "Kiwi jasper" was recently analyzed by X-ray diffraction (XRD) in a laboratory in Germany. I hereby happily share the results to contribute to mindat:

The white-gray main mass with slight green tinge appears to consist of 3 minerals, namely 2 feldspars: albite and orthoclase and a mineral from the smectite group (current name for montmorillionite group). Additional chemical analysis could provide further specification. However, no amazonite or microcline was observed. Orthoclase however is of course closely related to microcline, and MinDat teaches us that the designation amazonite is used 'overenthusiastically' for greenish feldspars including orthoclase. The dark grains have indeed been analyzed as a mineral from the mica group: muscovite. In addition, quartz has been found. no tourmaline was found in this stone.

In summary, "Kiwi jasper" is a rock (most likely a micro granite) consisting of albite, orthoclase, a mineral from the smectite group, quartz and muscovite.

Is this something you would like to add to Mindat? I can provide the XRD graphs co course.

 

13th Apr 2021 01:36 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

Hi Rolf,

thank you for that informative post.

Because "kiwi jasper" is a trade name and it's potentially possible that different vendors may use the same term to describe slightly different materials, could you do us a favor and also upload a nice photo here of the particular material you sent out for analysis, if possible.

As for whether a page can be added here to highlight this varietal name, my suspicion is that will probably be possible (since we already have seemingly millions of other "varieties" of things, including varieties of varieties); I imagine your XRD findings would be an extremely useful addition to that material's characterization. However, since I'm a bit of a "purist" when it comes to rock and mineral names here, I'll leave the final decision (and any potential implementation) to Jolyon or another manager.

13th Apr 2021 02:21 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

Hi Rolf

I certainly think that it should be added as a "variety" of jasper.

As Frank indicates above, initially it would be good to add your photo of the type of jasper involved plus a photo of any Id graphs etc plus analysis. If you at least add it simply as Jasper we can always discuss and create a "variety" page.

We currently have various "varieties" of jasper in mindat - but lack photos of most of them.

I'm also a bit like Frank in that Jasper is jasper, but I also believe that where there are commercial "varieties" of any rock/mineral it is worth at least describing and explaining what they are.


 

13th Apr 2021 21:44 UTCLarry Maltby Expert

OK, I will stick my neck out. I don’t think that it is jasper (microcrystalline quartz) at all. From the original description it appears to be predominantly feldspar. From the photos it appears to have phenocrysts of quartz and tourmaline. I think that it more likely to be a porphyritic felsite, an igneous rock.


18th Apr 2021 15:17 UTCRolf Egberink

thank you Larry, it was exactly my point of this post, that it is not a jasper at all but an igneous rock. Question was if MinDat would like to inform rockhounds and lapidarists about the exact composition of this rock that is sold a lot under its fancy name kiwi jasper. 

13th Apr 2021 16:21 UTCRolf Egberink

07459560017057147441889.jpg
Thank you for your responses Frank & Keith. I am happy to provide some pictures here.
I understand your dilemma with "jasper". I am writing a small book (in Dutch) about all these trade names and fancy names for common material. In the online mineral community I try to inform people about all these fancy names and varieties and I always refer to MinDat as a reliable source. Indeed a lot of common trade names are still missing here, including pictures. I would be happy to contribute to that, but I really would like to do that only where I have the evidence like in this case. Since I am not a mineralogist it would be great when the interpretation of the XRD findings can be double checked. 

Thanks, Rolf

17th Apr 2021 18:33 UTCGregg Little 🌟

Rolf;
I applaud you in trying to educate rock hounds and lapidarists on the errant practice of applying non-scientific, fanciful and marketing names to all manner of rocks and minerals.  I too battle against this in my corner of the world being one of few geologists on a number of rock hounding, minerology and geology web sites in Nova Scotia.

18th Apr 2021 15:18 UTCRolf Egberink

Thank you Gregg, I feel with you (not a geologist though, but an enthusiastic collector and educator).

13th Apr 2021 16:22 UTCRolf Egberink

08592240017057147467571.jpg
XRD analysis done by Mineralanalytik, Germany.

13th Apr 2021 16:23 UTCRolf Egberink

06012970017057147488534.jpg
XRD analysis done by Mineralanalytik Germany

13th Apr 2021 16:23 UTCRolf Egberink

09153600017057147492356.jpg
XRD analysis done by Mineralanalytik Germany  

13th Apr 2021 21:35 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

I would add the name as a variety of granite, not jasper. As a geologist I prefer to use the name jasper for rocks composed mostly iron-rich chert, though I know many lapidarists will use the name for practically anything they cannot otherwise identify.

13th Apr 2021 21:58 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

I agree Ralph.

In fact, I wouldn't even go as far as supporting it's a "variety" of granite; in this case at least, "Kiwi jasper" appears to literally just be a marketing name for tumbled pebbles of granite.

13th Apr 2021 23:27 UTCPaul Brandes 🌟 Manager

I was thinking the same thing, Ralph/Frank...

18th Apr 2021 15:25 UTCRolf Egberink

I also agree on the fact that this should not be named a variety of jasper nor granite. It is indeed nothing else than a marketing name for polished granite pebbles. Whether or not and where you should add this on MinDat is not up to me. What I am trying to do here is provide information on the mineralogical components of a rock that is sold a lot under a commercial / fantasy name. When people look for reliable information on minerals I always direct them to MinDat but you cannot find correct information on a lot of these marketing names. It is exactly the same story with e.g. Bumblebee Jasper. There is information on that on Mindat, not being a jasper variety also: https://www.mindat.org/min-46602.html. 

23rd Jun 2023 09:48 UTCLyndsey Winnington

Hello - I am coming at this from a novice angle and found this site while looking for info on whether Kiwi Jasper was actually jasper (after recently discovering that citron chrysoprase is not Chrysoprase/chalcedony(?) but magnesite) so thank you for taking the time to post this info. For what it's worth I think it is useful to have the most common fancy name listed as then you can avoid having lots of names but still have a link to the layman; they are usually listed in an aka fashion anyway so that sellers don't miss out on buyers. I make jewellery from natural beads and have recently been frustrated that I can't acquire beads made of the same granite that the buildings in Aberdeen are built from as I spent 4 years studying there and absolutely loved the atmosphere and the tone of the buildings. My interest in knowing what a rock is started with this dark grey granite. I have discovered Gabbro and seem to now be discovering that 'kiwi jasper' is granite too. Except I can't quite tell from your wording if it IS granite because you say it shouldn't be listed as granite or jasper? Sorry I know little about the make-up of stones as of yet but handling them every day makes me want to learn. I am glad I found this resource.

14th Apr 2021 00:32 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Yes, I think we should make a distinction between something that deserves a variety name and a mere marketing name. "Kiwi jasper" is just a marketing gimmick and I don't think we should be perpetuating its use via Mindat, although of course we do need to explain what it is for those people looking for the information. Difficult balance.

18th Apr 2021 15:26 UTCRolf Egberink

I also agree on the fact that this should not be named a variety of jasper nor granite. It is indeed nothing else than a marketing name for polished granite pebbles. Whether or not and where you should add this on MinDat is not up to me. What I am trying to do here is provide information on the mineralogical components of a rock that is sold a lot under a commercial / fantasy name. When people look for reliable information on minerals I always direct them to MinDat but you cannot find correct information on a lot of these marketing names. It is exactly the same story with e.g. Bumblebee Jasper. There is information on that on Mindat, not being a jasper variety also: https://www.mindat.org/min-46602.html.   

14th Apr 2021 01:00 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Alfredo, I agree.  I cringe every time I see "spirit quartz" on Mindat.

14th Apr 2021 21:59 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Yes I’m inclined to add varietal names in Mindat if they get formally published somewhere with a decent description, but if you go to eg. an ornamental mason, you will see dozens of such made up names for relatively normal rocks and such names are probably best ignored here.

18th Apr 2021 15:28 UTCRolf Egberink

I understand your point of view. But by ignoring these names on Mindat you keep correct information from a lot of people who are using these names but want to learn. I personally think it is important to educate about what rocks really are, especially when they come with an analysis like this. And there are already a lot of marketing names on Mindat that are explained and guide you to the right names. 

20th Apr 2021 03:21 UTCD Mike Reinke

But who can keep up with all the gimmicky names people in different places come up with? And how often they change/overlap/whatever.  Mindat needs not waste peoples time with what is really non information. Anyone wanting to really know has to do their own research, reading, asking. It does take time.

22nd Apr 2021 02:46 UTCGregg Little 🌟

Ralph; One of my pet peeves for ornamental stone names is black granite!?!?  It was not that black and being a gabbro, definitely not granite.  This kind of goes beyond a made-up name.

22nd Apr 2021 03:42 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager

Gregg, my pet peeve is "bumblebee jasper", made of calcium carbonate and arsenic sulphides - It's hard to imagine anything less like jasper than that!

22nd Apr 2021 03:42 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

My "favorite" is Dragon Scale Calcite.   Pa-lease!!!!

22nd Apr 2021 04:17 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager

but like a real bumblebee, you probably don't want to put it in your mouth... lol

22nd Apr 2021 22:03 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager

Yes, Gregg, I was bemused as a young rock collector to go to an ornamental mason and find everything considered as a variety of either granite or marble when most had no relationship whatsoever, other than hardness!

22nd Apr 2021 23:15 UTCKyle Beucke 🌟

Or "quartz."

Kyle

23rd Apr 2021 00:12 UTCRuss Rizzo Expert

Bet the Dragon Scale Calcite is popular with the Tolkien and the D&D crowd. :)  

29th Jun 2021 13:29 UTCKristi Hugs

*Waves at Rolf* Thank you for this!!! Was trying to "debunk" myself, but your testing and explanations are perfect!!

22nd Apr 2021 15:33 UTCNic Collado

02585150017057147512014.jpg

Alfredo, you’re quite right but it’s worth remembering that the tradition of calling some calcareous stones ‘soft jasper’ goes back hundreds of years, in Sicily at least.  The point of such names, just like with modern pretenders, was to emphasise the rarity of the stone, the difficulty and expense of obtaining it, its similarity to true jaspers in beauty and intensity of colour, and its typical ability to take a high polish. In that respect it's arguably a useful moniker. Here for example is a diaspro tenero di Sicilia (soft jasper from Taormina, Sicily) which is a Micritic limestone or marl with diagenetic colouring. Veins and fractures are filled with calcite’ (description from Oxford University Natural History Museum, Corsi Collection, no. 537.)  These Sicilian ‘soft jaspers’ are bedded infills in ancient caves and cavities in the local buff-coloured limestone.  This one looks much more like jasper than marble so you can see how it was christened. Interestingly it's visually very similar to a recently discovered fine grained ornamental rock from China, called by the lapidary community Cherry Creek jasper, which must contain no calcite as it is non-reactive to vinegar and is very hard as I can attest. 

 

30th Jul 2023 02:10 UTCRachael Reid

Hi I discovered this site in search for what “Kiwi Jasper” really is. Thank you for the information, it’s very helpful. 

30th Jul 2023 02:41 UTCKevin Conroy Manager

Mindat tries to name the real minerals present for stuff that has a trade name.  This is a great resource, and it's free!!!

30th Jul 2023 03:48 UTCHerwig Pelckmans

Hi Rachael,
Welcome to mindat!
There is plenty of things to discover & learn on this website.
And if you have any questions: let us know!
Cheers, Herwig

4th Feb 2024 10:02 UTCBecky Elizabeth

04522240017070408098270.jpg
Just yet another random update but the material is NOW being sold in raw form especially as "Phoenix Crystal (or stone" despite clearly being a rock of several minerals and no clear crystal formations and I bought some cheap chunks of it to view because it was advertised as a type of chrysocolla possibly with dioxide and / or dioptase and in polished form the names "kiwi jasper" "sesame jasper" and currently most popular is "Lotus Jasper". I took some photos and did a reverse image search to get these trade names and the ridiculous prices (including material Sold Out sites) were as much as $100USD or more; I paid under $2 for 5 'chunks' and I believe they are the same material with a little more green perhaps but I'll try to add the rough material in case others are looking up what this rock is truly made of... I tried to ad another image as this is the more dramatic of them but don't want to risk having to re type this post for the third time. Again, I read where someone was writing a book of trade names etc and figured something could come from my useless purchase!
  Cheers!
     Becky Elizabeth

4th Feb 2024 11:41 UTCKeith Compton 🌟 Manager

This has nothing to do with this thread!

4th Feb 2024 12:27 UTCFranz Bernhard Expert

Well, its partly sold as "kiwi jasper", so the post landed here.

It should have its own topic, of course:
"Another "kiwi jasper"..."
 
and/or  
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