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PhotosUraninite?
19th Nov 2022 18:44 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
19th Nov 2022 19:10 UTCtiny minerals
20th Nov 2022 00:42 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
20th Nov 2022 03:15 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager
20th Nov 2022 20:58 UTCJeff Weissman Expert
20th Nov 2022 22:35 UTCPavel Kartashov Manager
20th Nov 2022 23:26 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
Jeff, you could be right. I doubt that this piece has been analysed and I suggested Uraninite because it was black and the first thing that entered my mind. If it isn't rotten pyrrhotite or pyrite, anything radioactive and black is a good candidate.
20th Nov 2022 23:46 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
There are some more black spots in this sample, the main one at the top. Opening the image can see that the surounding of this black spot is at the time the most fluorescent but with absolutelly quenched phosphorescence. Maybe someone can extract a clue from this...
21st Nov 2022 00:19 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
The article I was remembering was in the March-April 2021 issue of UV waves:
You have to join the Fluorescent Society to read it in the archives. If you are interested in Fluorescents I urge you to sign up. It is well worth it. Mike Crawford's excellent new article on Sar-e-Sang is published as vol 39 in the Journal of the Fluorescent Society and there's more to come.
FEATURE ARTICLE- RADIATION ALTERATION OF SODALITE FROM SAR-E-SANG, BADAKHSHAN, AFGHANISTAN by Mike Crawford.
Anyway glancing at the waves article they too observed an increase in fluorescent emission in the radiation halos. I'll go read the article and report back.
21st Nov 2022 00:53 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
Oddly they don't say how they know it is Uraninite. All they say is
"An Images Scientific Instruments Geiger Counter that measures alpha, beta, and gamma radiation was used to measure the total radioactivity of areas on specimens. This instrument has a probe with a Neon-Halogen filled Geiger-Muller tube with a 0.38 inch effective diameter and a 1.5-2.0mg/cm2 mica end window. The probe was held within a couple millimeters of various areas on the crystals to record the total radioactivity "
Depending on the age I'm not sure you could tell the difference between thnorianite and Uraninite with only a Geiger counter. Whatever it is, it could accurately date the Richterite occurrence if properly analyzed.
I knew I had seen photos of Uraninite cubes from Sar-e-Sang and was going crazy checking everything else trying to find them. They are here. Nic cubes but Thorianite? From page 12 of the UV article we have:
Figure 10. Closeup picture of a black uraninite crystal in white calcite matrix. Yellow-brown and purple areas in the pictures are sodalite crystals altered by radiation from the uraninite. The uraninite crystal is about 0.5 mm. Total radioactivity in this area of the specimen ranged from 131 to 176 cpm compared to a background of 21 to 36 cpm.
I had a background of ~10 cpm and no black dots but some pieces gave 20-30 cpm above background. Sadly I can't copy and paste the image, however here is the conclusion :
CONCLUSION Radiation alteration caused by small grains of uraninite change the fluorescent response of sodalite from Sar-eSang, Badakhshan, Afghanistan. The alteration appears as spots or a coalescence of spots into “blotches” within the sodalite crystals. The alteration changes the fluorescent, phosphorescent and tenebrescent properties of sodalite. There is a red-shift in the maximum intensity of the disulfide vibronic peaks seen in longwave fluorescent spectra. The alteration changes the fluorescent and phosphorescent response activated by titanium. The center of the alteration spot becomes non-phosphorescent and removes blue fluorescence from the longwave, mid-wave and shortwave response. The cause of these changes is related to the electronic and structural changes and possible chemical changes created by long term gamma-ray exposure. The detailed mechanism for these changes is not understood. The intensity of tenebrescence increases in response to the radioactivity. A possible explanation for the tenebrescent change is that gamma-ray radiation increases the number of defects in the sodalite crystal lattice. More empty “cages” where chlorine is missing are created by the gamma-ray radiation. The additional empty “cages” capture electrons released by ultraviolet illumination to form more F-centers responsible for increase in the dark purple tenebrescence intensity
22nd Nov 2022 16:58 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
Mike hasn't analyzed the black grains and from their radioactivity assumed them to be uraninite. Analyzing a couple would probably tell the tale, but they are so rare that Mike is caught in the collector's dilema of keeping a specimen intact or finding out what the specimen was after being destroyed by analysis.
22nd Nov 2022 18:51 UTCHerwig Pelckmans
since the ID of the crystal in the photo above is uncertain, IMHO it would be better to name it
"thorianite-uraninite series"
Naming it that way is most likely the best valid option without having it analyzed.
Cheers, Herwig
22nd Nov 2022 19:33 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
At photo approval, I give people a hard time even for good guesses, and complain until they say something about how they know what it is or put "unanalyzed" in the caption as I did with Mike's photo.
Since this is all provisional until we get some analysis I'm happy to leave it as is, but if you want to change it to a series I have no problem with that, just leave "unanalyzed" in the caption.
29th Nov 2022 02:36 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
The crystal with stained aureole is soft, it scratches gypsum but not calcite and leaves a wide black streak on unglazed porcelain. It is magnetic enough to lift a ∅6x3mm magnet and quenches the fluorescence of both hackmanite and richterite.
The other scratches fluorapatite but not orthoclase and lets only a slight dark gray streak. It is scarcely magnetic, only with a ∅12x10mm magnet floating on water I arrived to detect a slight attraction. It does not have stained aureole, do not quenches fluorescence, rather the contrary, and has a colourless hackmanite halo that is not phosphorescent at all.
Aside these larger crystals, the sample has half a dozen submillimeter black dots scattered on hackmanite, some with stained halo, and a small concentration of black material on stained richterite that cancels out any fluorescence.
So for now we got these facts:
- One black crystal with hardness about 2.5, black streak, considerable magnetism and a stained aureole which quenches fluorescence in both hackmanite and richterite (this one could be an iron mineral partially oxidized but still magnetic).
- Another black crystal, with more metallic appearance, hardness about 5.5, dark gray streak, weakly magnetic, without stained aureole, which do not quenches the fluorescence around it but prevents the phosphorescence (maybe uraninite?).
I've asked a Geiger counter from Santa Claus which I hope will clear up the matter of radioactivity.
Thanks to Rob for rescuing this sample from its retirement in a drawer and inspiring me to study it a little further
Click on photos for comparison mode.
29th Nov 2022 18:02 UTCFred E. Davis
I have field collected many specimens of uraninite, and I would be *very* surprised to discover even one of those specimens that was ferromagnetic. As a quick test, I checked ~20 specimens of isolated uraninite crystals (no matrix to confuse the issue) from a variety of localities using an REE magnet (~4.8 mm dia.) suspended on a thin thread. Only 3 or 4 showed only *very* weak attraction, nothing even close to sticking to the specimen. Other specimens from the same locality as the weakly attracting ones showed no attraction at all, so it is variable even within one locality. It's not uncommon to find traces of Fe in uraninite, but from what I've seen, only very small amounts.
I suspect there might be a variety of black minerals present in your Sar-e-Sang specimens; some could be uraninite when analyzed, but others, like the one with strong attraction, are unlikely to be uraninite in my opinion.
29th Nov 2022 02:42 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
Here the pics of the hard metallic black crystal.
First photo shows the non-phosphorescent area around the black metallic crystal.
Clik on photos for more views and comparison mode.
Photomicrograph of hackmanite with a metallic black inclusion.
In accord with fluorescence, the colorless halo around the black crystal is also hackmanite, even more fluorescent than the purple one.
29th Nov 2022 03:39 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
Since these are from the Richterite occurrence I had a look at mine and found the above that sure looks like hot spots described in Mike's paper. There appear to be no black blobs associated with these, but on the reverse, there's a great big ugly one. I'll try to photograph it and maybe a friend might bring over a Geiger counter.
29th Nov 2022 12:42 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert
29th Nov 2022 14:50 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
The richterite occurrence and Sar-e-Sang area in general is located in metasomatically altered marble and others metasedimentary rocks, not in granitic pegmatites.
29th Nov 2022 16:05 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
29th Nov 2022 20:56 UTCHarold Moritz 🌟 Expert
29th Nov 2022 21:24 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
Maybe magnetism comes from a hidden non-altered core of an iron-bearing specie with oxidized outside, there is no much sense in such a strong magnetism in such a soft mineral.
29th Nov 2022 16:51 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
https://www.facebook.com/groups/fluorescentminerals/posts/10160386908123571/?comment_id=10160386969168571&reply_comment_id=10160388678403571¬if_id=1669736577530717¬if_t=group_comment_mention , They have Ramaned Uraninite and EDXed Uranium thorium oxides with Uranium dominant.
Since FB is a black hole for posts never to be found again I'll copy them here:
- 沈洪涛Group expertRob Woodside Julia Crystals Analyzed one via Raman and the result turns to be uraninite, I haven't got a chance on this material to analysis yet but I think it makes sense.2
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- 沈洪涛Group expertLudo Van Goethem Which one takes advantage? Uranium I guess? In my memory, Th minerals are mainly reported in Pakistan
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29th Nov 2022 18:18 UTCAlfredo Petrov Manager
(That won't distinguish between a uraninite and a uranium-rich thorianite, but at least one will know more than one did before the test.)
29th Nov 2022 18:35 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager
29th Nov 2022 19:26 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
Alfredo, thanks for the trick, I have only chlorhydric acid, I must look for nitric.
The "afterglow" photo on facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/photo/?fbid=1861175144226279&set=gm.10160386908123571&idorvanity=7350268570 ) can't be a phosphorescence photo. If it were, we wouldn't see the shadows nor the gray table nor the non-phosphorescent areas of the samples. Looks like a photoshopped visible light photo. Also the electric blue on that photo is very different of what I see in phosphorescence of my Sar-e-Sang hackmanite samples. Can't trust facebook, sorry.
Anyway black spots accentuate tenebrescence around them, as in the non-stained black crystal in my sample.
My curiosity is increasing with each step...
22nd Dec 2022 02:33 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
In addition to its hardness (5.5), the black crystals that enhances fluorescence and quenches phosphorescence seems reasonably confirmed to be uraninite.
24th Dec 2022 01:55 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
Another Sar-e-Sang hackmanite sample with uraninite dots causing luminescence disturbances similar to my sample in previous photos.
- quenches purple color centers under visible light
- increases fluorescence under long wave
- increases tenebrescence
- cancels phosphorescence
- increases fluorescence under long wave
- increases tenebrescence
- cancels phosphorescence
29th Dec 2022 01:53 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager
The magnetic black crystal in my Sar-e-Sang sample at the beggining of this thread is confirmed to be pyrrhotite after being tested by Adolf Cortel.
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: May 9, 2024 16:25:13
Unnamed Richterite occurrence, Ladjuar Medam, Sar-e-Sang, Kuran wa Munjan District, Badakhshan, Afghanistan