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PhotosVäyrynenite - Chhappu, Braldu Valley, Skardu District, Baltistan, Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakistan

7th Feb 2016 17:30 UTCPeter Slootweg 🌟

Rhodochrosite, Elbaite, Albite

Chhappu, Braldu Valley, Shigar District, Gilgit-Baltistan, Pakistan

Hello,

I was wondering if this vayryneite has been analyzed. I have two similar specimens with these pink crystals on pegmatite from the same location. Based om their habit i thought them to be rhodochrosite. They clearly display rhombic structures as does this specimen. My crystals tend to be accompanied bij hydroxylherderite, manganotantalite and elbaite on feldspars. They seem to be so different from all the samples in the vayrynenite gallery.

Peter

7th Feb 2016 18:21 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Rhodochrosite would show a rhombohedral habit. This crystal doesn't.

7th Feb 2016 20:16 UTCPeter Slootweg 🌟

Thanks for your response. The flat rhodochrosite disks from china doesn't neither show a rhombohedral habit. The crystal shown reminds me of those and the ones on my specimens even more so. The etching seem to follow the rhombohedral cleavages. That's why vayrynenite is still questioned. Although i admit this paragenesis is unlikely but not impossible for rhodochrosite.

7th Feb 2016 23:19 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I think what you are seeing is the cleavage.

8th Feb 2016 04:20 UTCJoel Dyer

Hi Peter,

After having handled a lot of väyrynenite from Viitaniemi, I would agree with the others. The color and lustre certainly seems to fit väyrynenite, too, from what I've experienced.

Interestingly, väyrynenite can be almost white sometimes, but a lot of the duller-lustre and more brownish-orange-pink stuff from Pakistan etc I suspect can in reality be eosphorite.

Cheers,

8th Feb 2016 13:52 UTCPeter Slootweg 🌟

Thanks for the comments guys. I'll change my labels to vayrynerite.

Kind regards,

Peter

8th Feb 2016 16:23 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

I'm the poster of this photo and not, the specimen was not analyzed. As can see, the crystal is small and partially dissolved, is not easy for me to name the faces. After spent some time last night trying to situate the crystallographic axes, I thought I had found the answer. But these evident cleavage planes don't fit. There is another third cleavage plane parallel to the reflecting face which can not be seen in this picture, ...and these three planes do not fit with expected cleavaje planes in Väyrynenite, which supposedly are (010), (100) and (001), the first two being perpendicular to each other.

I don't know what to think about, I need more time to observation, I hope this week will have the time...

Peter, please wait some days before change the label...

Thanks for your interest in this piece!

10th Feb 2016 20:15 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

While doing a closer inspection and trying to extract some albite in order to see more faces of the rose crystal, involuntarily ripped out a small chip such that now can see clearly the three cleavage planes intersection angles ...and

I belive they fit absolutely with the rhodochrosite rhombohedron {101}.

Now I think that Peter was right with rhodochrosite. But before changing the label, I would appreciate if you could take a look and give your opinion or comment. Thank you.

If rhodochrosite, bigger face at front under the reflecting one would be (001)

Side view

11th Feb 2016 01:23 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

3 is a crystal face not a cleavage surface and the angle between 100 and 010 should be 102.75 degrees.

11th Feb 2016 01:29 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Reiner, right, 3 is a crystal face which is parallel to one of the cleavage planes.

Another observation: the three cleavage planes draw a perfect equilateral triangle on (001)

11th Feb 2016 02:51 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

Well if there are no 90 degree angles then it cannot be väyrynenite however it might not be rhodochrosite maybe only pink calcite or dolomite so EDS is still required.

11th Feb 2016 03:38 UTCJoel Dyer

Those new picture are much more illuminative.

However, - although I can't CLAIM that the unanalyzed(!) sample is väyrynenite, I think that people are putting too much effort on desperately trying to find particular crystal or cleavage angles in the sample. Is that the right path to walk along in this case..?

1) As we can all see, the pinkish mineral is clearly partially dissolved, so the so-called angles can originate from that, from the surrounding mineral phase shapes, or even minerals that might have previously occupied the void: this has pointed out in many other discussion chains in Mindat. I think perhaps Dr. Seppo Lahti or Ilkka Mikkola might be able to support my thoughts here.

2)I'm sure there are a lot of people who have been to the Viitaniemi location, read the literature, and handled hundreds or thousands of phosphate samples from there - or similar places.

Without a doubt, many phospates in such complex pegmatites are often "void fillers" and very typically form triangular or other angled masses of crystallised rare/rarish phosphates. One simply cannot deduct things from the shapes of often partially dissolved väyrynenite. The stuff needs analysis & basic XRD should serve fine, to capture the Be as well, right?

3) Väyrynenite is a bit of a trickster and can take on a range of tints and the texture etc varies as well. if you want pictures, I or other Viitaniemi veterans can surely post manytpictures if needed. José & Reiner: have you guys handled a large amount of väryrnenites from many locations? I would be interested to know your further thoughts, as the subject interests me, and I have a lot of respect for your knowledge and experience.

Cheers,

11th Feb 2016 13:31 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Joel, thanks for your comments. In fact, my experience with väyrynenite is limited to this sample ...which probably it is not väyrynenite.

Another observation: the rose crystal is magnetic as are others rhodochrosites in my collection. I don't know if väyrynenite is usually magnetic.

Anyway, at last I've sent a small sample for analyzing, I will post the result when done.

11th Feb 2016 14:18 UTCPeter Slootweg 🌟

Thanks for your effort Jose. I'm looking foreward to the results!

Kind regards, Peter

11th Feb 2016 15:45 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

The new photos suggest it could be an etched apatite or beryll.

11th Feb 2016 18:06 UTCGunnar Färber

Hello,

I have analyses several of this so called "Väyrynenite" from Pakistan. All of it turns in to Zircon. There also several other pictures in the Väyrynenite gallary, there actually shows just Zircon crystals.

Best wishes from Tucson

Gunnar

11th Feb 2016 18:34 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

"There also several other pictures in the Väyrynenite gallary, there actually shows just Zircon crystals."

Which ones? I couldn't see any obvious candidates.

11th Feb 2016 23:10 UTCGunnar Färber

Hello,

one candidat is Specimen ID: X8M-76W, this are Zircon crystals.

Gunnar

12th Feb 2016 03:30 UTCRob Woodside 🌟 Manager

Dudley Blauwet tells me that all the pink " Väyrynenite" he has had from Pakistan has turned out rhodochrosite His honest Väyrynenite has all had an orange tinge.

12th Feb 2016 08:57 UTCJoel Dyer

This thread is interesting, brings new information to light for me regarding the "värynenite" specimens from Pakistan.

I had thought that most of the suspected or claimed väyrynenite is eosphorite, which can fool many, even experienced amateur mineralogists. Perhaps I was thinking of Afghanistan instead? I wasn't aware of any pink(!) zircons masquerading as väyrynenite: interesting!

Eosphorite often has a more brownish-orange-greyish blended color, no s so pink like väyrynenite. Väyrynenite also usually forms more clear crystal faces than eosphorite, of which I personally have no properly euhedral samples, nor do most of Viitaniemi collectors, I suspect. The luster is also different, more matte, as in morinite. Morinite is also more (light or dark) purple / grape-coloured at Viitaniemi.

If the Pakistan "väyrynenite" here is magnetic, certainly I would suspect it to be something else. I have actually never heard or read about any testing for magnetism in Viitaniemi samples - except for perhaps some stray pyrrhotite, which I've hardly come across at Viitaniemi.

I just now did a biref test of Viitaniemi phosphates, with a very strong Nb-alloy super-magnet, obtained from a familiar multi-entrepreneur and magnetic inventor here in our home town Merikarvia. Of half a dozen väyrynenites tested so far, none were in the slightest degree magnetic.

Other negative test results were gained from eosphorite, morinite, tourmalines tested so far, litiofilite, hurlbutite, tantalite-columbite --mostly tantalite-(Mn)-- , triplite, aresenopyrite. Later on, will test other Viitaniemi samples as well, just for the record.

And for research / analysis purposes, I may be able to supply a limited amount of small väyrynenite samples (no bulk-trading or sales-oriented requests, please!!) from Viitaniemi. The stuff is harder and harder to find nowadays at V-niemi and the samples are not like some classic, old-time fist-sized or larger that I've seen and handled at old-time collectors, or the few local Eräjävi people work-wise or else inimately connected with the V-niemi location.

Cheers,

Joel

12th Feb 2016 09:02 UTCHenri Koskinen Expert

Here is a photo of typical vayrynenite from Viitaniemi

[url=https://flic.kr/p/ei3zbG][img]https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7412/8725520272_4ba2b09132_b.jpg[/img][/url][url=https://flic.kr/p/ei3zbG]Berylliummineraaleja Viitaniemeltä[/url] by [url=https://www.flickr.com/photos/aarnijaheka/]Henri Koskinen[/url], on Flickr

It has one perfect cleavage and is very clearly monoclinic. Furthermore this perfect cleavage plane shows a wavy characater which is apparent also in some of the crystal photos from Pakistan. But several of the images in vayrynenite gallery look very different. There is one that looks very much like spinel and some look like rhodocrosite. Also matrixes miss other phospates like eopshorite, beryllonite, hurlbutite, which are usually present in Viitaniemi samples of vayrynenite.

There are more photos of vayrynenite in my Flickr gallery for "Viitaniemen fosfaatit".

Henri

12th Feb 2016 13:25 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

"one candidat is Specimen ID: X8M-76W, this are Zircon crystals."

http://www.mindat.org/photo-147653.html

In my opinion the crystal terminations and apparent cross-section don't fit zircon.

A top view would be nice, though - message sent.

12th Feb 2016 13:36 UTCReiner Mielke Expert

I agree with Uwe, does not fit zircon unless it is a pseudomorph?

12th Feb 2016 15:39 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

http://www.mindat.org/photo-147653.html

deleted on request; specimen will be analysed.

16th Feb 2016 20:19 UTCJosé Zendrera 🌟 Manager

Today I received the analysis result. I sent the small chip that was pulled out involuntarily, about 0.8 mm, I was not sure if it would be enough but yes, Adolf Cortel made a Raman spectroscopy with very clear spectrum: Rhodochrosite.

The result fits with visible cleavage, with magnetic properties and with his pink color free of orangish hue.

Thanks to all for your help and special thanks to Peter for pointing out the mistake.

17th Feb 2016 19:20 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager

Thanks José!

14th Jun 2016 23:53 UTCColleen Thomson Expert

Ive been looking into exactly the same thing for the last year!

First they were Rhodochrosite- then Väyrynenite,and then again Rhodochrosite (I have been in discussion over this with Mike Rumsey at the NHM for nearly a year!)

we both had the same material, his initial analysis was inconclusive and he was going to do more work on it - (i dont have his analysis available) but i saw him last week and his ID of the crystals was Definately Rhodochrosite.

One of my photos of the crystals on the sample clearly shows rhombohedral growth.

Very different from the other Väyrynenite crystals with vertical striations that have a slightly different hue.

I will PM you José :-)

15th Jun 2016 01:27 UTCDavid Garske

Crystallography looks just like an elongated rhombohedron-rhodochrosite or similar carbonate.

Dave

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