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51654
MineralsUM1988-18-S:CuFe
20th Mar 2024 00:14 UTCfsq (Mia Lane)
Co-described with compositionally similar 'UM1988-17-S:CuFe', and also zincian chalcopyrite, 'zincian high cubanite', pyrite, marcasite, sphalerite, chalcopyrite, and cubanite, from cored metalliferous sediments.
The page for 'zincian high cubanite' no longer exists or has never existed so the link leads to nowhere, should either be removed or converted from a link to plaintext
The page for 'zincian high cubanite' no longer exists or has never existed so the link leads to nowhere, should either be removed or converted from a link to plaintext
20th Mar 2024 00:56 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
20th Mar 2024 09:44 UTCfsq (Mia Lane)
20th Mar 2024 11:24 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
fsq (Mia Lane) ✉️
zincian high cubanite What is this then?
Deleting the link is not really the solution
Deleting the link is not really the solution
20th Mar 2024 11:31 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
20th Mar 2024 11:34 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
20th Mar 2024 11:43 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
20th Mar 2024 11:54 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
You're right in that in terms of pure mineral nomenclature, the mineral species is isocubanite and everything else is irrelevant.
But the association here was specificially with zincian isocubanite, and if we just list the species in our database as 'isocubanite', we're losing data. We're disregarding the zinc.
This is not a matter of "well it can go in the description", because that's not how databases work.
In order to accurately define the association found at this particular locality, an entry is needed that describes 'zinc bearing isocubanite'.
Now, I agree there could be an alternative database design where the adjectival modifiers are separate from the names, and are essentially defined properties. And in many ways that would be better, because you'd simply flag them as being "zinc bearing" when adding isocubanite to a locality.
But we don't do this for several reasons.
Firstly, the list of such modifiers would be huge, and the user interface in adding this to a locality, or selecting it for a photo, would be immense.
Secondly, it would also add another area where contributors could make mistakes in attributing believed varietal adjectives to the mineral in their specimens that make no sense.
But most importantly, it makes it harder to easily search for them. If I want to know what this "zincian high cubanite" is, I can now simply type it into mindat and it tells me. With a varietal modifier system that becomes a lot more complex.
We also have to deal with things that are misused eg 'cadmian smithsonite' (which frequently isn't) - so having a page where we can explain these issues is important.
But the association here was specificially with zincian isocubanite, and if we just list the species in our database as 'isocubanite', we're losing data. We're disregarding the zinc.
This is not a matter of "well it can go in the description", because that's not how databases work.
In order to accurately define the association found at this particular locality, an entry is needed that describes 'zinc bearing isocubanite'.
Now, I agree there could be an alternative database design where the adjectival modifiers are separate from the names, and are essentially defined properties. And in many ways that would be better, because you'd simply flag them as being "zinc bearing" when adding isocubanite to a locality.
But we don't do this for several reasons.
Firstly, the list of such modifiers would be huge, and the user interface in adding this to a locality, or selecting it for a photo, would be immense.
Secondly, it would also add another area where contributors could make mistakes in attributing believed varietal adjectives to the mineral in their specimens that make no sense.
But most importantly, it makes it harder to easily search for them. If I want to know what this "zincian high cubanite" is, I can now simply type it into mindat and it tells me. With a varietal modifier system that becomes a lot more complex.
We also have to deal with things that are misused eg 'cadmian smithsonite' (which frequently isn't) - so having a page where we can explain these issues is important.
20th Mar 2024 12:45 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
Firstly, the list of such modifiers would be huge, and the user interface in adding this to a locality, or selecting it for a photo, would be immense.
Secondly, it would also add another area where contributors could make mistakes in attributing believed varietal adjectives to the mineral in their specimens that make no sense.
But most importantly, it makes it harder to easily search for them. If I want to know what this "zincian high cubanite" is, I can now simply type it into mindat and it tells me. With a varietal modifier system that becomes a lot more complex.
20th Mar 2024 13:04 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
Jolyon Ralph Founder ✉️
But the association here was specificially with zincian isocubanite, and if we just list the species in our database as 'isocubanite', we're losing data. We're disregarding the zinc. There are other ways to preserve this information.
And indeed, just because "zincian isocubanite" has a page here doesn't mean anyone is required to use it. If I found a zinc-rich or zinc-bearing (whatever these nebulous terms mean) isocubanite in a thin section from from a new locality, I'd add it to the database under isocubanite, not under any of these varietal names. But I'd also include the analysis, and I'd write in the analysis comments that the sample is zinc-bearing, and then let the reader decide if my assertion of "zinc-bearing" or "zinc-rich" is significant.
I've done this already with an analysis of Co-bearing staurolite (under staurolite, not "lusakite"), Cr-bearing staurolite (also under staurolite... fortunately no "Cr-bearing staurolite" option has so far been created), and Mn-bearing andalusite (under andalusite and not "viridine").
20th Mar 2024 13:07 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
Jolyon Ralph Founder ✉️
We also have to deal with things that are misused eg 'cadmian smithsonite' (which frequently isn't) - so having a page where we can explain these issues is important. This is really the only decent justification for some of these pages, but even here, it seems the number of these can be kept to a minimum.
20th Mar 2024 19:52 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
21st Mar 2024 09:53 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
Frank is right, if we added all combinations of detectable element substitutions to a mineral, as happens with silly things like “barium and chromium bearing muscovite” we would have a ludicrous number of almost meaningless variety pages. It’s ok for long standing non-adjectival names like ruby and emerald, but plainly obvious adjectival names not needing clarifying descriptions are pointless.
Nobody ever said we should do that. BUT we should add varietal names appearing in the literature.
21st Mar 2024 07:31 UTCHerwig Pelckmans
People who want to find combinations like "zincian isocubanite" on any mindat webpage can easily do so using Google and specifying the search to be within the mindat website.
21st Mar 2024 09:27 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
One thing we have to work on in the future is a way of matching these things together - Frank is right that an analysis + 'isocubanite' would be the same thing as adding 'zincian isocubanite' - but only once we have MUCH smarter systems here that are capable of drawing that conclusion from the analytical data - and even then there are the countless cases of names being used in historical literature.
21st Mar 2024 10:34 UTCHerwig Pelckmans
"we need to have a mindat page on this one"
and what kind of adjectives do not merit that distinction?
Looking at it from another point of view, and taking as an example a common mineral like zircon, how many different pages are you going to end up with, according to you?
21st Mar 2024 10:44 UTCUwe Kolitsch Manager
We should add varietal names appearing in the literature.
Of course, we should not invent varietal names in case that's not obvious.
21st Mar 2024 10:55 UTCFrank K. Mazdab 🌟 Manager
So smart people (and hopefully smart algorithms) should search for instances of the root noun, and then check those sources, for example, if the desired adjectives appear in the associated metadata: does fibrous or skeletal occurs in the metadata (for example, under a mineral habit), or yellow or brown occurs in the metadata (under physical properties), or does "zinc-bearing" not necessarily as exact text (for example in the general description) but as Zn or ZnO in an accompanying analysis where the value exceeds some user-specified threshold, and so on.
Even if algorithms aren't smart enough yet to search this way (and they're not... even simple searches for things often misinterpret my query and take me to unwanted results), we can prep our database for when this actually works. Producing thousands of arbitrary and weirdly specific adjective-noun combo pages so the lazy/dumb human and current algorithm searches can exact-match it is both wildly inefficient and ultimately futile.
21st Mar 2024 14:49 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
It does bring up important questions, such as, we have a myraid of different names for each different colour variety of quartz, but we don't have such names for the varieties of fluorite - what's the deal with that?
Well, it's because of the fact that the names for amethyst etc are never going away, and no sane person is going to create new names for all the different shades of fluorite, but I do agree we're gaining information about the data for quartz varieties and their distribution that we're NOT getting with fluorite. Is this important? Maybe not - very minor trace element variations that end up with a blue or a yellow or a green fluorite probably mean very little, but pink octahedral fluorite is another thing, being found in specific alpine environments.
Should we have a name for 'pink fluorite' in the same way we have 'rose quartz'? I'm sure that wouldn't be very popular especially amongst those on the thread here, but I also see some sense in it.
21st Mar 2024 16:00 UTCHerwig Pelckmans
Yttrian epidote - https://www.mindat.org/min-47746.html
Yttrian Titanite - https://www.mindat.org/min-54890.html
Zirconian Yttrian Coffinite - https://www.mindat.org/min-54889.html
FYI: None of the above pages have any references
Some of the above pages refer to some of these pages (a search with yttrium):
Unnamed (Hydrous Yttrium Silicate)
Yttrium Aluminium Garnet
Yttriumapatite
Yttrium-bearing Titanite
Zirconium- and Yttrium-bearing Coffinite
On the bright side: the Yttriumapatite page has 2 references!
Most pages are found when doing a search with "yttro":
(no less than 54 pages found)
So, is mindat going to create the missing 100 or so "yttrium xyz" pages and "yttrian xyz" pages, just to make "computer-based analyses and pattern matching" possible?
IMHO: if the programmer can't do it with the existing web pages, you should get yourself a better programmer. I'm still with Frank.
21st Mar 2024 18:41 UTCJolyon Ralph Founder
21st Mar 2024 19:57 UTCRalph S Bottrill 🌟 Manager
Uwe Kolitsch Manager ✉️
we should add varietal names appearing in the literature.
Yes as long as we understand what a variety is and when it’s important. We have lots of pages for mineral varieties based on colour, but not things like pink fluorite or red quartz, and I am not sure we need to? We don’t have a page for Japan-law twin quartz etc, so they can be hard to find in Mindat. But we want to add a page for every detectable chemical variant of a mineral, as long as it’s given an adjectival modifier in print? I have gone into print with names like “fine grained, tin and topaz-bearing greisenised granite” or “brown dolomite” and you could argue it’s a variety of rock or mineral but I dread to think every such adjectival modification of a name suddenly needs a new page. Maybe an adjectival variety should only get a page if it gets some sort of definition, eg >1% Ba etc, else most papers and reports we produce would require a string of new rock and mineral names?
21st Mar 2024 20:00 UTCLalith Aditya Senthil Kumar
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Copyright © mindat.org and the Hudson Institute of Mineralogy 1993-2024, except where stated. Most political location boundaries are © OpenStreetMap contributors. Mindat.org relies on the contributions of thousands of members and supporters. Founded in 2000 by Jolyon Ralph.
Privacy Policy - Terms & Conditions - Contact Us / DMCA issues - Report a bug/vulnerability Current server date and time: May 9, 2024 18:58:47